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Author Topic:   How did Noah deal with worms?
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2960 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 84 of 113 (166370)
12-08-2004 9:47 PM


Everything you wanted to know about worms...
Rather than reply to any specific posts I decided to just write a general one. I really wish I would have seen this one back in August! While my current research is in arthropods, I have a long-standing love in annelids. I thought a basic background addressing certain points would be useful. Yaro's original point still stands uncontested.
The first thing to keep in mind with 'worms' is that the term defines an organizational grade rather than a taxonomic grouping. There are 'worms' across several phyla (Platyhelminthes, Nematoda, Nemertea, Annelida, Echiura, Hemichordata, etc.). The worms being discussed are annelid worms in the Class (probably polyphyletic) Clitellata. The other members of the phyum are Pogonophora (like the deep-sea vent tube worms of fame) and Polychaeta (the mostly marine bristle worms).
Sometime far back in this discussion the suggestion was made that earthworms living in lake sediments represented the same 'kind' as earthworms. For this to be true the definition of 'kind' needs to be once again stretched to impossible limits. Because those lake worms (Limnodrilus, I believe?) look like earthworms they must be the same kind. The fact is that Limnodrilus is in a completely different suborder (Tubificina) than is the earthworm (Lumbricina). If they are the same kind and diverged since the flood by microevolution then Humans and Lemurs could have microevolved since the flood (Suborder Anthropoida vs Prosimia), cows and pigs (I don't remember the taxa, Boviina and Suiformes? I am an invert guy!) and so on. The worms differ at a very important level. In another post marine blood worms were mentioned, these are actually a completely different class, Polychaeta. The polychaete called a blood worm is a glycerid, usually genera Glycera, Hemipoda, etc. The family is completely marine.
One of the more energetically demanding aspects of physiology is ion regulation. Most organisms, especially aquatic ones, simply cannot do it efficiently. The majority of marine invertebrates die quickly with even slight changes in salinity. Skin-breathing terrestrial organisms cannot usually tolerate any salt water. Freshwater creatures dehydrate in the presence of salt water. Yes there are a few creatures that are euryhaline but most (I would say 99% as a ballpark) cannot. So unless the flood maintained the exact salinity at the exact points all over the world, we would have lost both fresh and saltwater organisms. I cannot see how the flood could be both salt and fresh in all of the right places, makes no sense.
I do agree with Southerngurl's point (although not the flood) that earthworms wouldn't really have been a problem on the ark. The other thousands of kinds of worms would have been more problemmatic.

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2960 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 92 of 113 (166702)
12-09-2004 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by southerngurl
12-09-2004 6:54 PM


"goddidit" arguments don't help
Hi Southerngurl,
In the interest of keeping this topic alive I would refrain from using arguments of the goddidit quality (from the school of "god said it, I believe it, that settles it"). I am in no way berating you, just informing you for your sake and the good of all.
The arguments on this forum need to be kept in the realm of evidence and logic, no matter which side you take. Yes God could have miraculously spared the worms since he also had the power to create them in the first place, but calling miracles into the picture doesn't get us anywhere.
For example, a Bible literalist might argue (and I am in no way implying you would ever say this, I am exaggerating to make a point) that 4000 years ago God destroyed the Earth with a global flood, but the reason we have no evidence or contrary evidence is because a God powerful enough to destroy the world can leave any evidence he so desires. That may or not be true, but such arguments aren't productive in this forum.
So far your points have been reasonable and well-taken (although you do need to read Rhain's dove on ice post and respond, I am eager to hear!). Keep up the good work!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by southerngurl, posted 12-09-2004 6:54 PM southerngurl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by southerngurl, posted 12-09-2004 8:55 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 96 by roxrkool, posted 12-09-2004 9:23 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
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