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Author Topic:   Is talkorigins.org a propoganda site?
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 7 of 301 (282662)
01-30-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by randman
01-30-2006 4:39 PM


Re: talkorigins vs. bible.ca
randman writes:
So is the thread about TalkOrigins or creationism? Seems like the stock answer for evos when confronted with errors by evos is to attack creationism but whether a creationist site is accurate or not doesn't change whether an evo site is, or vice versa.
Isn't it about time you guys accepted that?
Ah, on-topicness, the last refuse of he who cannot refute...
Well, rand, if you use creationist sites to critique T.O., then the credibility of creationist sites is fair game, yes?
Speaking of which, surely you understand that this portion of your quote is (to put it kindly) inaccurate? Either the fellow is remarkably ignorant of history or deliberately repeating a lie:
Haeckel had simply repeated a series of look alike drawings for his 1874 Anthropogenie and, until Richardson reported the facts in 1997, no one had taken the trouble to actually check on Haeckel’s work! May I suggest that this was because Haeckel’s theory seemed such good evidence for evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 4:39 PM randman has replied

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 Message 8 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 4:57 PM Omnivorous has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 12 of 301 (282702)
01-30-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
01-30-2006 4:57 PM


Dr. Haeckel's Critics Hyde
Omni, by no one, in context he clearly refers to evolutionists as he mentions he and others had checked those facts and shown them to be wanting.
Three possibilities: one, he means literally no one, in which case he is demonstrably wrong; two, he means no one but creationists, in which case he is demonstrably wrong; three, he means no scientists who accept the ToE, in which case he is demonstrably wrong.
The man is just flat wrong. My intuitive take is that he got carried away with his rhetoric--but he didn't go back and clarify it, did he?
I don't think evolutionary scientists need to explicitly repudiate every error made in prior centuries before getting on with their work, any more than Christians need to repudiate Ptolemy, and the persecution of Galileo, before discussing and critiquing modern science.
Do you?
I guess the alternative is we could think they all deliberately lied, but that seems to be going too far, don't you think?
Yes, I think so, but it would seem that many creationists, et al. disagree.
Let me put it this way, rand: the creationists' smears of evolutionary scientists who had little interest or knowledge of Haeckel's work, and their distortions and misrepresentations about Haeckel's work, its significance and reception, dwarf Haeckel's own sins, and they occur for the same reason that his did--Haeckel thought the essential truth of his observations justified manipulating the images to make them more persuasive. That is a continuing problem of human behavior in everything from faked stem cell research to staged miracles.
A good close-to-home example is your use of the Collector's Curve here at EvC to claim that 90% of all fossils that will ever be found have been found. Even though it was pointed out that you were representing an empty, data-free paradigm illustration as slam-dunk evidence, you never renounced your claim--you just left it uncorrected in the historical record, thus perpetuating an erroneous claim--sorta like bad drawings.
Where are the creationists/IDers/critics of evolution who ought to be soundly rejecting your error in order to preserve their own integrity and credibility?
Sound familiar?
Creationists adore Richardson's 1997 paper and his rejection of a highly conserved phylotypic stage, but never address Richardson's subsequent publications, including his 1998 letter to Science repudiating the use of his work to attack evolutionary biology, and a later paper which addresses the continuing importance of Haeckel's ideas.
Still, I am happy to learn that you reject the claims of critics who accuse evolutionists of deliberately misleading readers about Haeckel's drawings. That's progress.
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 01-30-2006 08:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 15 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 11:44 PM Omnivorous has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 20 of 301 (282826)
01-31-2006 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
01-30-2006 11:44 PM


Re: Dr. Haeckel's Critics Hyde
Richardson honestly admitted and claimed it was one of the biggest science frauds in biology, and then came under intense pressure and criticism by other evos, people like you I might add, and then comes out and writes they are "good teaching aides."
Please support this assertion.
The rest of your message is tired, recycled rhetoric, and it fails to respond to my question: doesn't your misrepresentation of the Collector's Curve parallel Haeckel's use of his drawings?
BTW, you say people like me did that?
You mean a bunch of middle-aged Army veterans who were late-arriving English majors and graduate creative writing fellows, and who now manage computer networks, banded together to pressure Richardson?
And they didn't invite me?
Now THAT is a scandal. Evo conspiracies sure aren't what they used to be.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 111 of 301 (285647)
02-10-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by randman
02-10-2006 2:20 PM


So close, and yet so far
Percy, just look at the list of scientists that are creationist or IDers, and then look at their papers, work, etc,...
Behe for example, or the professor at NC State, or any number of scientists that are not evos.
It's sad that you guys still perpetuate the myth that no creationist scientists are doing valid scientific work.
Rand, you almost made it. You walked right up to the brink of telling us about scientific advances made by creationists and IDers...then you blinked, and treated us to another standard rant against evolution instead.
Better luck next time.

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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3991
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 114 of 301 (285658)
02-10-2006 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by randman
02-10-2006 1:49 PM


Re: consider these articles
percy, creationist scientists make advances just as evos. Imo, evos have set science back by perpetuating myths such as the Biogenetic Law and false characterizations of the fossil record.
Time to put up or shut up, Rand.
Name some advances for which creationism or ID can claim credit.
OTOH, each time you evade the challenge, you damage your credibility, so I guess defenders of authentic science can take comfort in that.
This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-10-2006 03:08 PM

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
-Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 02-10-2006 1:49 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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