Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,901 Year: 4,158/9,624 Month: 1,029/974 Week: 356/286 Day: 12/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How can Biologists believe in the ToE?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 99 of 304 (419665)
09-04-2007 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Ihategod
09-03-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Of course I will entertain....
So lets deal with your points.
quote:
1. age of the earth. I don't think anybody can use an assumption like uniformitarianism and postulate theories that could very well be incorrect. Thus leading into ideas that radiometric dating can work. In geology you need this uniform idea, in biology you need drastic environmental changes, it just doesn't stack up.
So here you feel free to proclaim that an entire field of science - and one which you don't understand - is wrong. Geologists don't use strict uniformitarianism and haven't for some time. The only place you are likely to find it now is in YEC arguments for a young Earth.
Biology doesn't need any "drastic environmental changes" that are rejected by geologists - in fact geology is a major source of evidence for the nature of the environment. ANd there are no plausible major environmental changes that could even theoretically disrupt radiometric dating. The only contradiction is in your imagination.
quote:
2. irreducible complexity - Micheal Behe. The only argument against this that I have read is that this just can't be true. Behe isn't a real scientist. Damage his character so you don't have to face the facts.
Behe's argument relies on a simplistic model of evolution. Mueller, using a more realistic model predicted that evolution would produce irreducible complexity, decades before Behe wrote his book. There's at least one experiment where a two-part system has evolved in the laboratory and a theoretical studiy using a computer model (AVIDA) has also demonstrated the evolution of irreducible complexity.
quote:
3. anomalies in geology. polystrate fossils and objects, out of place artifacts, angular unconformities, dinosaur and man footprints.
Polystrate fossils - those that actually exist - are adequately explained by geology.
Every out-of-place artifact I know of has a questionable provenance - there is no reliable record of where they were found. One "the Coso artifact" turned out to be the remains of a spark plug - it was even possible to identify the manufacturer.
Angular unconformities are evidence for an old Earth.
There are no confirmed human footprints found alongside dinosaur footprints.
quote:
4. Living dinosaurs.
http://www.livingdinos.com/mokele_mbembe.html
If some dinosaurs (other than birds) had managed to survive the KT extinction and live on to modern times it would have no signfiicant effect on evolutionary theory at all.
quote:
5. The lack of any transitional fossils. and this is hilarious:
CC200: Transitional fossils
Might as well say that their isn't any. Only a good imagination can fill the "gaps." And anyways what about the invertebrate transitions?
There are many transitional fossils and that article is nowhere near exhaustive. And it DOES list several examples of invertebrate transitions. DId you read it at all ?
quote:
6. Mathematics. The Scientific Evidence for Creation, by Duane Gish
nodnc.com is available at DomainMarket.com. Call 888-694-6735
The first article is a pack of nonsense. I really wish that more creationists would pay attention to Dembski's saner utterances. At least he has some idea of how to frame a probability argument. The probability argument - which I assume is the one you refer to - assumes a single attempt with a single successful outcome, accomplished by pure random combination. As such it is simply a strawman.
The second article has the same flaws.
quote:
7. Order to disorder, thermodynamics. I think this is probably a weak argument however the talk origins apologetic seems lacking.
From: Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution
The talkorigins article is hardly an apologetic. The section you quote points out that order to disorder does occur naturally without an intelligent agent or information "embedded" in nature.
quote:
It seems that they are excluding original design and the implications thereof.
It seems that they exclude it because they are listing examples where no intelligent agent is involved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Ihategod, posted 09-03-2007 7:49 PM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-05-2007 2:31 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 108 of 304 (419867)
09-05-2007 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Ihategod
09-05-2007 2:31 AM


Re: Of course I will entertain....
quote:
Appeal to authority and popularity, don't make me give another example. I Would very much like to see links backing up your views instead of wild assertions.
While an appeal to authority is not strictly a valid logical argument it is certainly a rational argument where the authorities are appropriate. In this case we are talking about an entire scientific field. The only "wild assertion" seems to be your assertion that geology and evolutionary biology require differing conditions - something you haven't offered any support for at all.
quote:
What like PE? Produce irriducible complexity? Provide some links so I can entertain myself. All you seem to gots is wild assertations.
PE is about modes of speciation, based on Mayr's work. And it was published well after Muller's work. IF you understood PE you wouldn't even mention it.
Muller's 1918 Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors is online and free.
This section is relevant:
thus a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous different elementary parts or factors, and many of the characters and factors which, when new, were originally merely an asset finally became necessary because other necessary characters and factors had subsequently become changed so as to be dependent on the former. It must result, in consequence, that a dropping out of, or even a slight change in any one of these parts is very likely to disturb fatally the whole machinery; for this reason we should expect very many, if not most, mutations to result in lethal factors, and of the rest, the majority should be “semi-lethal” or at least disadvantageous in the struggle for life, and likely to set wrong
any delicately balanced system, such as the reproductive system
(emphasis in original p464
His 1939 Nature article "Reversibility in evolution considered from the standpoint of genetics." is available on line, but must be purchased.
quote:
Ok, sure. Links.
You mean like the links you used to show that there were polystrate fossils ? Oh, right. You didn't have any.
But try this which deals with a 19th century explanation that still holds up.
quote:
http://s8int.com/index.html
http://byerly.org/whatifo.htm
The second link proves my point about provenance.
The "chain in coal" simply states that a local newspaper reported the "find".
For the crystal skull it states
Evidently the story of the skull's discovery is a fabrication
And do read the comments.
quote:
Under the model of relative geology, of which I currently debate.
But you've yet to offer even a good reason to think that angular unconformities could form in a YEC scenario, let alone that they are evidence for a young Earth.
quote:
Dinosaur and Human Co-existence: FOOTPRINTS
Human and Dinosaur Footprints in Turkmenistan? | Answers in Genesis
Like I said. Here are no confirmed examples. All we have is the opinion of a few people all of whom happen to be YECs - and some of them pushing obvious fakes like the "Burdick track"
quote:
Honestly? Explain how it would not.
How WOULD the discovery of living dinosaurs affect evolutionary theory ? It might let us fill in some details about dinosaur evolution because we can get more information from living specimens then we can from fossils, but that's about it. The reason the dinosaurs are belived to have died out isn't because evolutionary theory said so - it's because the physical evidence for living dinosaurs stops 65 million years ago. The extinction is a fact to be explained, not a theoretical prediction.
quote:
Yes, and it was reminiscent of a movie by F. Gary Gray.
Want to explain why you didn't notice all the examples of invertebrate transitions ?
In fact lets be honest. You didn't read it at all. You just assumed that it was Kathleen Hunt's FAQ on vertebrate transitionals, didn't you ?
quote:
Avoiding the topic? Or assuming that I am as knowledgable as you seem to think you are? This assumption has been proven wrong at the EvC many times, just click on my name and follow the topics.
I'm certainly not assuming that you are as knowledgable as I am. But it seems you aren't even knowledgable enough to follow my point.
So, you claim was that mathematics was evidence against evolution. Your claim was false.
Firstly an argument that incorporates a mathematical calculation does not mean that mathematics supports the claim. To take an extreme example, if I said 2 + 2 = 4 therefore the speed of light in vacuo id 4 metres per second I could not claim that mathematics supported my claim even though the mathematics is completely accurate.
SImilarly the probability calculations only validly argue against the scenarios that they assume. Since these are not the scenarios proposed by scientists working in abiogenesis or evolution all they have done is disprove something that nobody believes.
The calculations are not valid arguments against evolution or abiogenesis even if they are accurate because they do not address the real issues involved.
quote:
Hardly unbiased information. Please prove me wrong.
Since my only points concerned what the article said (and its nature) I don't see any need to provide further evidence. If you won't even believe that it says what it says then there isn't anything to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-05-2007 2:31 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Ihategod, posted 09-05-2007 3:52 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 122 of 304 (419972)
09-05-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Ihategod
09-05-2007 3:52 PM


Re: Of course I will entertain....
quote:
I checked the link, and read it all, then came to the conclusion that Dawson and talk.origins has no clue how these things exist in multiple stratas.
It's really quite clear. Look at Dawson's figure 41 in the text. The stump is buried in sandstone (deposited in relatively rapid events) which turns into shale (slowly deposited) near the base. That's one stratum. Then there's a layer of shalely coal (more shale plus coal formed from organic debris). That's a second stratum. Then there's a layer of underclay beneath (the remains of soil which the tree grew in), which the roots have penetrated. That's number three. Then there's more sandstone which the roots extend into. That's four.
quote:
*If* it wasn't deposited rapidly, how did it just survive long enough to be buried then fossilized? I know first hand what happens to trees that have sediment over the original root level. It won't take long before the micro-organisms eat through the bark and kill the tree. Also too much water will kill trees especially if it's stagnant water. Dawson might have known about geology, but he excludes the basics of horticulture.
How are any of these problems ? It's not as if the trees are alive. It's not as if they were alive when they were buried. A hollowed out stump is dead - so what does it matter that the conditions that buried it would kill a living tree ? And without knowing what conditions the tree grew under there's no way to know what conditions it liked - the species is extinct. Why should it not have liked water as much as, say, modern mangroves ?
quote:
This in no way suggests that a massive flood couldn't have deposited this. The fact is that roots will bind and hold together soils. Hostas are extremely good plants for this, also most broadleaf grasses. It could have taken a massive chunk of soil with root ball intact.
There are serious problems with that. Firstly we have the remains of the soil and it is not restricted to a clump around the roots. Then we have the layer of coal on top. Then again the tree is in an upright position while a tree deposited by a flood would more likely be left on it's side. Moreoever these trees must have decayed to their present state (stumps -often hollow) before being finally buried.
quote:
Mullers response is confusing as it does not address how these machines appeared. He speculates why there will be many vestigual parts, which is and has been proven ignorance on the part of the scientist.
Muller explains why we should expect to see irreducible complexity which was the point at issue. Your assertion can be answered in general by pointing to the processes of evolution which even Behe concedes can make "machines" which are not irreducibly complex. And there's certainly no reason to expect Muller to deal with any specifics other than the point he was addressing.
Moreover you are completely wrong on the issue of vestigial parts. Creationist claims on this issue have been shown to depend on insisting that a vestigial part has no surviving function whatsoever. However a more reasonable definition certainly includes the human appendix which makes at most a minor contribution to the immune system - a contribution that only partially offsets the hazard created by its presence. If you want to argue that the appendix is not vestigial because it isn't as dangerous as it might be, I really don't see that you have a case.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Ihategod, posted 09-05-2007 3:52 PM Ihategod has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024