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| Author | Topic: Free will but how free really? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tangle Member  Posts: 6875 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
It has personal uses - the opium of the masses and all that - it's a bi-product though; making you feel better about yourself in the here-and-now is not religion's real purpose. And the fact that it's imaginary is a real problem for man's long-term mental health. Or it would be if it wasn't pretty clear that religion's influence is waning all over the developed world and that countries with the greatest populations of atheists are the happiest overall. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Stile Member  Posts: 3501 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.2
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I don't think it matters what religion's "real purpose" is.
I don't think this is true. I think many people require something like religion in order to have good long-term mental health.
I think this is more because we have a world where most places have religion, and shun atheism. However, if it was reversed... if we had a world where most places had atheism, and shunned religion... I think we'd be in a very similar place. And, again, it would be those areas that allowed both that would thrive. I think it's a problem to think one or the other is better "in general."
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is no real purpose to religion. Take your foil hat off.
You don't know that, and i don't believe you.
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Tangle Member Posts: 6875 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I suspect you are a nice liberal religionist. Most of modern western democracies are recovering religionoholics and generally getting on ok, by not bothering other faiths and non-faiths too much. Their political influence is waning and although their bigotry is still apparent in some areas such as sexuality and birth and death, it's definately on its last legs as far as control is concerned. But there are some other less benign religions that do feel that it matters what religions real purpose is and are prepared to do some dispiccable things to help it along. I also think that it really does matter that adults rely on imaginary beings to make them feel better about themselves - that's not healthy. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Stile Member Posts: 3501 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Despicable things should be stopped because they are despicable. Regardless of what type of people do them or why.
I think you're wrong. Humans have had instincts that rely on imaginary things to make them feel better and keep them safe since before we evolved into "humans." That's very healthy. It certainly may not be healthy for you. As it isn't for me. I don't see a reason to deprive them of it.
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Tangle Member Posts: 6875 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Sure, but still they do it at least partly because the believe a fiction. Removing the fiction would remove the problem.
We've come along way since we lived in caves and played kill or be killed without iPads. Why do you think we still need these rediculous imaginary beings? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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ProtoTypical Member  Posts: 1792 From: Ontario Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
The question of free will always comes down to the question of causality and determinism.
It matters because the self rests in the space left by a break in the causal chain. The question of responsibility relies on the ability of the individual to be a breaking point by conscious decision. And so it comes down to the nature of consciousness and what it means to be aware. If it turns out that I have no real choices then the house of cards falls to the ground. edit Suspension of disbelief is ok for the rollercoaster but not so much for the contemplation of existence. Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Your argument is similar to mine. What is purpose of such concepts as responsibility, punishment, or even deterrence if none of those things can actually work. And how could those concepts work if every human act is predetermined. One possible counter-argument is that we all have an illusory sense of free will which compels us to act as though our actions have consequences. I don't find such arguments suitable, and akin to the idea that none of are real and we all live in one of Stile's dreams. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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ProtoTypical Member Posts: 1792 From: Ontario Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
The fact is that we cant get along without the concept. Where would we be without personal responsibility? What I find interesting is how the our jurisprudence works better as we appreciate that people are a product of their environment.
That seems unacceptable to me as well.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
To make sense, there has to be more people than environments; and so what you do in your environment is what makes you you. People are a product with their environment, not of it. Our wills are, actually, free to operate within their boundaries. That we decide what we will actually do is what puts the onus of our actions upon ourselves. Without this, a lot of our framework could come crashing down. To disregard the concept of free will is a fool's folly.
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ProtoTypical Member Posts: 1792 From: Ontario Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
It is an interesting paradigm where we need the process of cause and effect so that we can assign responsibility to the individual and at the same time that process removes responsibility.
I don't know about 'more' but there has to be at least some input from the individual that originates with the individual.
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Thugpreacha Member  Posts: 12414 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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1.61803 Member  Posts: 2838 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Hi Tangle, interesting points from you. I will say that me being in the medical field may influence my perspective. It has been shown that stress is one of the leading causes of damage to the body. Anything that can be done to help alleviate that stress will pay dividends in reducing the inflamation and un-healthy effects of damaging stress. If a person is mollified by the idea of the imaginary sky man and that is how he/she manages his/her stress and anxiety then it is imo a healthy endeavour. I take my 11 year old to mass on Sundays not because I am a devout Catholic. I do it because it give us a opportunity to do something together. To be social, to sing and listen to the choir, to have a part of my past experiences shared and hopefully instill some good values. Someday she will not believe in the Easter bunny/Santa Clause/ the imaginary sky man. And that's ok too. We can always have that discussion. I actually envy the devout and faithful because where they have certainty, I have angst and yes probably a extra measure of stress. And I know you will probably think that I can do something social and together with my daughter that does not involve religion and mythology. But this is after all part of what makes me, me. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Being a "product of your environment" looses practicality if every individual has their own unique environment.
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Tangle Member Posts: 6875 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
If you remove the cause, people can't die or live their life for it.
Sure, but as they ARE both imaginary and ridiculous .....
Because there's absolutely no reason at all to think that there is - certainly nothing a ludicrous as the mythical guy(s) in the Bible. Please point me to non-evidential reality. Does that phrase actually mean something to you? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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