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Author | Topic: Free will but how free really? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Debateable - it may just be a way of avoiding a real problem, or putting it back. Of course the very existence of religious beliefs are founded on man's insecurity - all the evidence is that belief in deities or ancestral spooks that look after us is natural. But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become. Kick away the crutch people!
I can think of nothing more stressful than truly believing that unless I follow some externally and supernaturally imposed dogma, I'm going to hell, or that some deity is reading my mind and watching my actions and will some day hold me account for that sneaky sexy thought.
I think it would be a good plan, 'cos one day she's going to wake up and think you're wally for beliving all that bells and smells stuff and you'll have nothing in common anymore. Take her fishing ;-) Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I kicked my crutch, a substance, and when I looked to myself I found God and He helped me even further - and now I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my life.
I don't have either of those thoughts. My experiences with God have been nothing but open arms and loving advice. When I first found God, I was a little scared that He was gonna be pissed at me - but I've never sensed that. Apparently He is always there and willing to help, but you do have to ask. There has to be something important about us maintaining our Free Will - He doesn't seem to want to get all up in our faces, but instead waits for us to seek Him. I suppose He doesn't want to "make" you believe in Him, but instead wants you to want it. But I'm just speculating.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
It sounds like you found another crutch. But I'm just speculating. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 220 days) Posts: 1814 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I am not sure I get what you are saying. Practical or not, we are products of our environments and each one is unique.
How would this apply to something like sexual orientation or taste in music? Do we choose the things that we find attractive and is resisting a desire more of a choice than giving in to one? It seems to me that our volition is just a calculator always trying to balance the equation in our favour. Not unlike an autonomous car safely navigating the way.
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Phat Member Posts: 14944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Stile Member Posts: 4034 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.0
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I agree. The same that I agree that bombs that kill many, many people use electronics. And if we removed all electronics, then we remove the problem. I agree that you speak the truth. There are bans and restrictions on electronics such that those who want to make bombs that kill people cannot easily do so. And if found out, they are punished. I would certainly agree with bans and restriction on religion such that those who want to use to hurt others cannot easily do so. And if found out, they should be punished. But I don't agree that all religion should be removed, the same as I don't agree that all electronics should be removed.
Because some people still receive many, many benefits from them. I wouldn't want people restricting my atheism just because a bunch of crazy atheists went around killing people. Therefore, I don't want to restrict religion just because a bunch of crazy religionists go around killing people. Religion is simply, currently, a really good excuse for people to control and use the power of hatred in others. Removing religion won't give you the solution you're looking for. Find another solution.
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Phat Member Posts: 14944 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
No, you're confusing mechnisms with motives. Religion provides motivation to do harm to others. It's devisive.
I don't think i've said what my solution is yet :-)
I'm not proposing a ban on any religion - that doesn't work, religions need martyrs. Nope, religions get rid of themselves through improvements in education and improving secular institutions, reducing poverty, inequality, improving health, justice etc etc etc. This 'need' just disappears when exposed to the light. People don't need crutches. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Stile Member Posts: 4034 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Certain manipulations of religion do, yes.
I think this blanket statement is wrong. I see no reason to deprive them of that as long as the religion they use does not provide motivation to do harm to others and is not divisive.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Very few religions have missed out the 'them and us' stage - Christianity included. As I've said, in most of the West, Christianity is largely emasculated and harmless - with the exception of the evangelicals and fundies. But even they are outnumbered and ignored these days - albeit with the extraordinary exception of the USA where they still have a power base. That many nutters in one country is kind of frightening.
They need educating out of it; it's the 21st century. Beliefs are normative - they're learnt, they don't exist naturally, we have to make them up, then teach them. Stop it!
I'm not interested in depriving them of anything - these silly superstitions will be blown away in time by humane secular values, just so long as they're not encouraged by allowing them into education and positions of influence. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I hear you, but I'm not leaning on it. I'm running around living my life It's more like a light that is guiding my way rather than something that I have to carry around and rely on.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There's some studies that would disagree: quote: quote: quote:
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Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
Yup, I'm fully aware of how beliefs can become a prophylactic or placebo allowing some people to deal with the underlying problems of society. However, I think that rather than have a pretend sky-daddy make you feel a little bit better about the here and now - opium of the masses - it's better to remove the underlying causes - stress, alcohol, lack of excercise, immigration stress etc etc. If you look at those countries that have managed to chuck away their superstitions - such as Scandanavia - they are fairer and happier societies. People that live in fair and happy societies live longer and better without the superfluous belief system that tells them that life might be shit now but just believe in this particular magic and when you're dead it'll all be ok. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
So then you're giving up on your thesis?
I removed causes like those after I became religious and the evidence shows that being religious is associated with not having those causes. Granted, being religious doesn't have to mean having a pretend sky-daddy - so you can have that one.
Thinking that supports your thesis would be illogical and irrational. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
That just looks like you displaying your personal prejudice and bias against religion. I'll consider your thesis refuted.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8066 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.3 |
I've hardly started. The fact that some people find consolation in a fantasy, doesn't make their beliefs real nor does it deal with the underlying causes of their problems. If you deal with the cause, the placebo is no longer required and we can get on with doing more useful things.
Well if you're lucky the placebo may last. If not, there's always Prozac.
It does no such thing. You'll have to work a lot harder to demonstrate that.
Crap. It's evidence that religious belief is not necessary to feel good about life.
Not only does it look like it, I can confirm that I am giving my opinion. I do have a bias against religion, like I have a bias against fascism, nationalism, headaches and sushi.
I'm sure you do. You appear to have joined the irrationals. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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