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| Author | Topic: WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
It seems that you have committed a whole host of errors, first off, Jehovah's Witnesses are not fundamentalists. I explained the Law of the Christ or the New Covenant to you at http://EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? message 135 and I am still waiting for your reply, could you please use the response button so I can more easily find your answer. Not answering and running off in another thread and claiming victory is very naughty of you.
Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:The definition of Fundamentalism is: "conservative movement in American Protestantism arising out of the millenarian movement of the 19th century and emphasizing as fundamental to Christianity the literal interpretation and absolute inerrancy of the Scriptures, the imminent and physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Birth, Resurrection, and Atonement." -Britannica The five doctrinal points listed in the definition are what determines whether or not a religion or church is Fundamentalist. Jehovah's Witnesses do not agree with the five basic fundamental points of Fundamentalism and hence are not a Fundamentalist religion. Jehovah's Witnesses are biblical literalists, but not Fundamentalists. From what I can find in a quick search of my references, Fundamentalists seem to be mainly Baptists and conservative Presbyterian churches. You are using your own definition of the word Fundamentalism and applying it by rules of your own making that have no standing in the real world and hence is of no value. In your OP you stated.
quote:Now this is your special definition of the word Fundamentalist and you refer to the issue of circumcision in the early Christian congregation. You apparently have overlooked the out come of that dispute, (Acts 15:28-29) "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!"" So even in the very example you used to try to support your argument, you are wrong. When telling the congregations that circumcision and the Mosaic law were not Christian requirements, they listed several 'necessary things' that were required. This is part of the Law of The Christ which I explained to you in my other post which I will repost at the end this post. quote:Paul's point was stated in the next verse. (Galatians 2:21) "for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing." Paul was telling the Galatians salvation is in being a follower of Jesus Christ, not in keeping the old law code that had been fulfilled and ended with Christ's sacrifice. This verse is not a 'definition of what a true christian is' it is only one of requirements spelled out in scripture for Christians. You seem to be arguing a 'once saved, always saved' point which is not what Paul was teaching in Galatians 2:20 as shown by verse 21. I also dealt with the 'always saved' thing in my post below, so no sense in repeating it here. Your support for the always saved view is strange since it is primarily a Fundamentalist type thing I have heard mainly from born again-ers like the Baptists who are of course Fundamentalists. Earlier post: Dear Willowtree;
quote: I am not a follower of the law of Moses, the scriptures I cited were all from the NT, not the OT, I wasn't referring to the old law code. Christ ended the law with his sacrificial death, the law of Moses came to an end in eyes of God. (Romans 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the Law," Christians are not under the law of Moses, but are under the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2) "the law of the Christ." This change is referred to at (Hebrews 7:12) "For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law." But what is the law of the Christ you may ask? The law of Christ is a set of principles that we must live by if we are to please God, but where as the law of Moses was written on stone tables the law of Christ was to be written on our hearts. (Hebrews 10:15-16) "Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: "'This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,"" This is the "New Covenant" sealed with Christ's blood. We are indeed saved by faith, but if that faith doesn't move us to live by the commands of Jesus Christ, that faith is dead. (James 2:26) "faith without works is dead." If we claim to be a follower of Jesus and yet willingly practice wicked things, we have disowned the faith. (1 Timothy 5:8) "Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (Titus 1:16) "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort." (Matthew 7:16) "By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?" Clearly even if we claim to be Christians, failure to follow the law of the Christ, the commands given to the christian congregation and guiding principles found in the Bible, would show that we are not true Christians. Though we are saved by faith alone, that faith needs to be a living faith that is the controlling factor in our discission making. I know many people promote "a once saved, always saved" doctrine that once you have accepted Jesus as your personnel savior, you are guaranteed eternal salvation regardless of any future actions. But that doctrine is in complete conflict with scripture. Notice what Jesus himself said on the subject. (Matthew 24:10-13) "Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." So if one failed to remain faithful and zealous, you would not be saved. Paul warned the Corinthian congregation who of course were baptized spirit anointed Christians who had accepted Christ as their personal savior. (1 Corinthians 9:27-10:13) "but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow. . . . Nevertheless, on most of them God did not express his approval, for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, for us not to be persons desiring injurious things, even as they desired them. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink, and they got up to have a good time." Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [of them] in one day. Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [him] to the test, only to perish by the serpents. Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." Notice that Paul had to "pummel" (figuratively of course) his body to refrain from in engaging in sinful conduct that would result in his being disapproved by Christ which would mean the loss of eternal life. We are only always saved if we remain always faithful, James warned on this point also. (James 1:19-27) "Know this, my beloved brothers. Every man must be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath; for man's wrath does not work out God's righteousness. Hence put away all filthiness and that superfluous thing, badness, and accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save YOUR souls. However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]. If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man's form of worship is futile. The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." See, we must live by the good standards found in the Bible (the law of Christ) and remain without spot from the sinful world, or we will not have Christ's approval. Far from teaching once saved always saved, Paul warned Christians not to fall into the habit of willfully practicing sin which would have dire consequences. (Hebrews 10:26-31) "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God." Paul here was not talking about non Christians, he was talking baptized dedicated members of the Christian congregation. Christians who deliberately sin, would be worse off than those who don't accept God or Christ since they can repent, but as Paul stated those who already know the truth would have no sacrifice left since they have trampled on the gift of Christ's sacrifice. Hope you understand what I have been trying to get across to you, otherwise try asking me specific questions and I will see if I can answer them for you. Wm. Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:My point was is that you can't redefine words, it is like you saying that the sky is red because you have redefined red as the color of the sky, people are not going to agree with you. But even under your definition, Jehovah's Witnesses are not sine fundamentalists since they don't preach conformity to the Mosaic law. You have been confusing the law of the Christ with the law of Moses. You review my earlier post on that if you want. The law of the Christ is the biblical requirements for Christians, the righteous standards we are to live by, like not murdering or committing fornication, or do you think that Christians can practice such things? quote:Yes of course I agree. John 3:16 tells us "that everyone exercising faith" would be saved, but do you know what that means? To save us, our faith needs to be an active living faith which means it changes how we think and act, it can't be a mere acknowledgement of fact or acceptance. (1 Timothy 6:10-12) "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains. However, you, O man of God, flee from these things. But pursue righteousness, godly devotion, faith, love, endurance, mildness of temper. Fight the fine fight of the faith," Those who had been lead astray did not stop believing Jesus was the Christ, they stopped pursuing Christian activities and were instead pursuing wealth, which was enough to cause them to lose the fine fight of the faith. (Hebrews 6:10-12) "For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering. But we desire each one of YOU to show the same industriousness so as to have the full assurance of the hope down to the end, in order that YOU may not become sluggish, but be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." We are not saved by works, but our faith is expected to produce works, a dead faith that doesn't cause us to live by it, can't save us, our faith has to motivate us to follow Christ's example in our lives to be of any benefit. So contrary to what many think, just believing is not enough, we need to 'exercise faith' which would include activity pursuing christian activities and living by the righteous standards found in the scriptures as Paul wrote to the congregations. That is probably the whole reason for this disagreement, you need to see the relationship between faith and actions. quote:Go to Galatians 2:12 and look back three verses; (Galatians 2:9) "James and Cephas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of sharing together, that we should go to the nations, but they to those who are circumcised." Paul in the book of Galatians stated that he viewed James as a pillar in the congregation, a major supporter, not a subverter of the faith. If you read verse 12 carefully, you will see that James didn't send the men to teach circumcision, they did that on their own. James preached mainly to the Jews, and it was the Jewish Christians who as a group favored keeping the law as a requirement, not James. Paul also wrote that (2 Timothy 3:16) "All Scripture is inspired of God" which would include the portions written by James. The Bible writers all wrote under the influence of the holy spirit, which is why it is called the word of God, it is not the word of man, or even a man named James. Don't reject portions of god's word because of silly man-made theories. What James stated in Acts was; (Acts 15:28-29) "we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." and what Paul wrote the Galatians; (Galatians 5:19-21) "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." the two are speaking in agreement. There is no contradictions or conflict in what the Bible teaches, such things only exist in the minds of those who have yet to come to a better understanding of God's word. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:Now what if I redefine the word "satanist" to be someone with your beliefs, does that make you a satanist? No, it would make me look dumb but it wouldn't make you a satanist any more than your redefinition makes me a fundamentalist. Plus as I have very patiently been repeatedly explaining to you, as a Christian I don't follow the Mosaic law, had bacon just the other day as a matter of fact, so there. (LOL) You have put yourself in the position, by your insistence that I am a "fundementalism" when I know that I am not, of saying that you know what I believe better than I do. I don't think ether of us knows the other well enough to successfully make such an argument. I am disheartened to hear that you reject the book of James, perhaps you should list all the Bible books you reject so that I don't try to base my arguments on verses you reject. As I pointed out in my last post.
quote:In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul states the same basic rules as James and states that those who practice these will not inherit the Kingdom, so how is there a conflict between the two when they teach the same thing? I think I am beginning to see where you are coming from with the principle over rule thing. My point is that the principles need to based on something. If you have someone join you in your belief but has many wives and likes to fool around and doesn't think it is a sin, what do you do? How do you show him that it is a sin if his conscience doesn't brother him about it? Paul stated that he wouldn't have know what sin was if it hadn't been for the law. (Romans 7:7) "Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: "You must not covet."" While not under the law, it is a guide as to what God considers to be a sin, otherwise it would be up to everyone to make up their own mind and there would be no agreement as to what was and what was not a sin. It is only because you have been raised in a christian environment exposed to the values based on the principles found in the bible that you know what it is, you have taken it for granted, but without this you wouldn't know what was a sin ether. So in the end, you have come full circle and are arguing against your foundation for your own conscience like a cat bitting it's tail. In oriental countries, they do not view man as sinful at all, because they lack exposure to biblical standards. Without standards of righteousness, there is no concept of sin and the need for a redeemer from bondage to sin isn't even seen by many, this is how the law was a tutor leading us to Christ it showed us that we are sinful and needed redemption. The law is like the first stage of rocket, once it had served it's purpose it is jettisoned and the second stage takes over, but you couldn't have gotten where you are without it. While the law is physically gone, the thrust it imparted to our second stage, the momentum of the guiding principles it contained is essential to the success of Christianity. How many Christians have you seen who believe in once saved always saved and feel free to do what every they want? Without what was behind the law, christianity becomes play dough that people twist into whatever fits their life style rather than changing their conduct to live by Christ. Just as the law guided the Jews to Christ as a group, the righteous principles in the law continue to guide individuals to Christ by showing us how sinful we are and that we need a redemption from sin. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:The 'Bible haters' don't know squat about the Bible which is why they don't understand it and see contradictions all over the place that don't even exist. There is no conflict between Paul and James, they both teach the same things. A reference book I have explains the situation very nicely. quote:You still haven't answered this part from my earlier posts, so I will post it for the third time. quote:Most of our difference on faith/works is probably a matter of viewpoint and word definctions. What I believe the Bible teaches is that we are saved by faith alone, but that faith needs to be a faith that produces works. The works do not save us, but that faith that produced them does. But if our faith doesn't move us to do the works, we really don't have faith. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:James wasn't stating that, that is a clear contradiction of what Christ taught and never would have been supported by the bothers present let alone by Paul who did support the decision reached. James wrote (James 1:3-6) "this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." that salvation was by enduring in faith. James makes the point in his book that faith without works is dead, and it is by exercising faith or doing works based on faith that we are saved. The works are not what saves, it is the faith that they are caused by, the works are a demonstration of faith, an exercising of faith.. If works are just works they do not save, but if they are an exercising of faith, they demonstrate our faith and prove our faith, which is what saves us. While an absence of works is an indication of a lack of faith. James point was that Christains must have both faith and works. First off, the book of James was regarded as part of the inspired word of God and is found in the earliest records as being part of the Bible. Second the early Christians had the gift of miraculously knowing whether something was inspired or not and they viewed James as inspired. Paul wrote that all scripture was inspired, which would include the books of James. James also regarded what Paul had written as being scripture, which he hardly would have done if they were having a dispute over doctrines. James was also head of the Christians and was intrusted with the authority do decide issues as he did, now if he perverted things, why didn't God step in and correct it? In fact Jehovah supported the decision as shown by the support of two of his prophets speaking his words in support. (Acts 15:32) "And Judas and Silas, since they themselves were also prophets, encouraged the brothers with many a discourse and strengthened them." So it was impossible for the James decision to be in conflict with Divine will. Paul didn't disagree with James, he even carried the decree to the congregations and taught it. Christ prayed for his followers to be one, united, so if would have been a major blow if there was such a major disagreement that it spilt the NT books into two camps. This major disagreement is never detailed, explained or resolved in the scriptures which it would have been if it was real. Most importantly Paul supported and taught every one of the supposed heresy you say James was guilty of. In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists the same things James did and states "that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." To which you stated "The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works," But you ignore the fact that Paul addressed those words to the congregation "did forewarn YOU" that if they practiced those things they would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned the Christians of the danger of sinning, they were still imperfect and it took continuous effort to stay out of trouble. Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." Which was just what James had stated, failure to obey the necessary things would result in loss of divine favor. Paul stressed in his letters that we have to not practice sin if are to be saved. (Hebrews 5:9) "he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him," Which is what Jesus taught, the whole bases of Christianity. (John 3:16-21) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . . . Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God." The exercising of faith is doing works, and our works are judged as to whether they are in harmony with God. Our works don't save us, they are only the manifestation of our faith. If we were to do works without faith, it is of no value. Yet if our faith doesn't move us to do works, such as living by righteousness, we really do not have a real faith to save us. That is what James was talking about and why Paul had no disagreement with him. It really is such a simple point, clear as crystal, if we really believe we will act on what we learn. If we don't act, we have not really put faith in what we have heard. (James 1:22) "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning." Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Williowtree;
Was your post a response to mine or are you starting a new topic? On my earlier post. I hope you understood it and are wiser for it. In regards to your last post, there are many wrong paths and only one right one, but do you know how to find it? How do you identify the "True Christians"? Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson (James 1:22) "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning."
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:Irrefutable? Then why didn't you use those 'irrefutable' points and show me point by point how my interpretation is wrong? If you could have, you would have, you got nothing and you know it. quote:It sounds like you are saying that we are to leave any effort to change our behavior up to the spirit and we do nothing, like some sort of autopilot. Your thinking here is obviously based on taking a few scriptures out of context and ignoring many others that conflict with your non-biblical teaching. The spirit does create the fruitage of the spirit in us, if we allow it and follow it. If you don't cooperate with it, the spirit will leave you. Listen to what Paul taught about it. (Colossians 3:5-15) "Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [See, you need to do this, it is not automatic, it takes real effort.] On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things and in all. Accordingly, as God's chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also. But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union. Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts," Paul would not be telling the Christians that they had to do this if the spirit would do it for them by itself. They had to work hard to change their behavior, the spirit would help them to make changes that without it would not even be possible, but they had to work with the spirit. Failure to work with the spirit to put on the fruits of the spirit, would be grieving the spirit and could result in losing it.(Ephesians 4:29-5:20) " Let a rotten saying not proceed out of YOUR mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers. Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom. Let all malicious bitterness and anger and wrath and screaming and abusive speech be taken away from YOU along with all badness. But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave YOU. Therefore, become imitators of God, [See, we need to imitate God's good qualities by doing our best to live up to his righteous standards which is not easy. ] as beloved children, and go on walking in love, [ go on walking, effort.] just as the Christ also loved YOU and delivered himself up for YOU as an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling odor. Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people; neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. [Once again, Paul is saying we need to change our behavior, not that the spirit will do it for us.] For YOU know this, recognizing it for yourselves, that no fornicator or unclean person or greedy personwhich means being an idolaterhas any inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and of God. Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partakers with them; Lord. Go on walking as children of light, for the fruitage of the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and truth. Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; [how? by studying what God's requirements are.] and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works that belong to the darkness, but, rather, even be reproving [them], [Repeatedly it is empathised that WE need to change our conduct, God's spirit will help us make the changes but it will not do it for us without us even thinking about it.] for the things that take place in secret by them it is shameful even to relate. Now all the things that are being reproved are made manifest by the light, for everything that is being made manifest is light. Wherefore he says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and the Christ will shine upon you." So keep strict watch that how YOU walk is not as unwise but as wise [persons], buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked. [We need to keep strict watch on our conduct and keep it in check.] On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father." If we are to "Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord;" we need to study and know what God's righteous standards are, and if we are to " Go on walking as children of light" we need to conform our lives to them. Just leaving ourselves on autopilot and expecting the spirit to keep us out of trouble is not what Paul preached and doesn't work. Look at the parts I highlighted in bold about not using abusive speech and obscene talk, clearly looking at your posts on this board you have a major problem in this area that leaving it up to the spirit to correct, has utterly failed to clean up your speech. Even the non Christians on this board can see how offensive and unchristian your words sometimes are, even banning you from posting on most of the board, if you are going to change you need to work at and pray for God's spirit to help you. So your potty mouth shows that your approach to displaying the fruitages of the spirit is very ineffectual in addition to being scripturally wrong. quote:James did not promote following the old law code, the works he refers to are Christian works of doing God's will. Since you didn't reply to, understand or possibly even read my post on this, I will repost part of it. James wasn't stating righteousness is gained by following the Mosaic law, that is a clear contradiction of what Christ taught and never would have been supported by the bothers present let alone by Paul who did support the decision reached. James wrote (James 1:3-6) "this tested quality of YOUR faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." that salvation was by enduring in faith. James makes the point in his book that faith without works is dead, and it is by exercising faith or doing works based on faith that we are saved. The works are not what saves, it is the faith that they are caused by, the works are a demonstration of faith, an exercising of faith.. If works are just works they do not save, but if they are an exercising of faith, they demonstrate our faith and prove our faith, which is what saves us. While an absence of works is an indication of a lack of faith. James point was that Christians must have both faith and works. First off, the book of James was regarded as part of the inspired word of God and is found in the earliest records as being part of the Bible. Second the early Christians had the gift of miraculously knowing whether something was inspired or not and they viewed James as inspired. Paul wrote that all scripture was inspired, which would include the books of James. James also regarded what Paul had written as being scripture, which he hardly would have done if they were having a dispute over doctrines. James was also head of the Christians and was intrusted with the authority do decide issues as he did, now if he perverted things, why didn't God step in and correct it? The fact that Jehovah supported the decision is shown by the support of two of his prophets speaking his words in support. (Acts 15:32) "And Judas and Silas, since they themselves were also prophets, encouraged the brothers with many a discourse and strengthened them." So it was impossible for the James decision to be in conflict with Divine will. Paul didn't disagree with James, he even carried the decree to the congregations and taught it, which he would not have done if he disagreed with it otherwise he would be a hypocrite. In Galatians 5:19-21 Paul lists the same things James did and states "that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." To which you stated "The fruit of the indwelt Spirit miraculously makes you conform. This Spirit only comes in by faith and continues to operate only by faith, which said thing called "faith" has nothing to do with works," But you ignore the fact that Paul addressed those words to the congregation "did forewarn YOU" that if they practiced those things they would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned the Christians of the danger of sinning, they were still imperfect and it took continuous effort to stay out of trouble. Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." Which was just what James had stated, failure to obey the necessary things would result in loss of divine favor. Paul stressed in his letters that we have to not practice sin if are to be saved. (Hebrews 5:9) "he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him," Which is what Jesus taught, the whole bases of Christianity. (John 3:16-21) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . . . Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God." The exercising of faith is doing works, and our works are judged as to whether they are in harmony with God. Our works don't save us, they are only the manifestation of our faith. If we were to do works without faith, it is of no value. Yet if our faith doesn't move us to do works, such as living by righteousness, we really do not have a real faith to save us. That is what James was talking about and why Paul had no disagreement with him. It really is such a simple point, clear as crystal, if we really believe we will act on what we learn. If we don't act, we have not really put faith in what we have heard.
quote:You are misinterpreting Hebrews 4:2-11, the ones who didn't get to enter God's rest was the disobedient generation that was not allowed to enter into the promised land and instead died off in the 40 years in the wilderness. See for yourself, look back a few verses and look, Paul is talking about that generation, not the Jews as a whole. (Hebrews 3:8-11) "do not harden YOUR hearts as on the occasion of causing bitter anger, as in the day of making the test in the wilderness, in which YOUR forefathers made a test of me with a trial, and yet they had seen my works for forty years. For this reason I became disgusted with this generation and said, 'They always go astray in their hearts, and they themselves have not come to know my ways.' So I swore in my anger, 'They shall not enter into my rest.'" Those who did not get to enter God's rest was just that one generation and could have if they had been obedient. The next generation born in those 40 years did get to enter the promised land and did get to enter God's rest in a limited sense.(Joshua 21:44) "Furthermore, Jehovah gave them rest all around, according to everything that he had sworn to their forefathers," Christians have the opportunity of fully entering God's rest, but that is only possible under Christ's millennial reign, till them we only enter it partly by as you said deceasing from works of the flesh. (Hebrews 4:11) "Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest," Even for Christians the full enjoyment of God's rest day is yet in future. Your doctrine is not supported by scripture. Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
Now if I follow what you are saying, because you believe you have the holy spirit, the spirit miraculously prevents you from sinning. You are probably basing this on; (Galatians 5:16) "Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all." But notice that the second part is dependant on the first part, "keep walking," if we work to over come fleshly desires the spirit will help us to succeed. If we don't try, the spirit isn't going to help us. I notice you didn't reply to one of the points I made earlier.-- Even Paul had to be very careful not to let himself slip into wrong conduct. (1 Corinthians 9:25-27) "Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. . . . but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." So answer me this; if Paul believed as you do, why did he stress exercising self-control and having to 'pummel' his body so that he would not sin? According to you it should have been automatic for him if he exercised faith, so didn't Paul have faith? Also please explain why Peter wrote about using all earnest effort to supply things like self-control if he believed what you do. (2 Peter 1:5-9) "Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light]," Your, no effort all faith, approach to putting on the fruits of the spirit is not what the Bible teaches and having exchanged e-mail with you, it certainly isn't working in your case. To quote your e-mail. "You are a brown nose wimp - go stand on some corner holding up a silly magazine - real effetive way to spread the gospel. . . . this email response and your outrage at alleged bad language exposes you to be a a self righteous atheist loving moron. And you THINK Percy respects you - they laugh at you - you moron." Obviously these are not the words of someone who follows the one who said, (Luke 6:27-28) "Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU." That is the difference between us, while you curse me, I pray for you. I was also wondering if you think that if the holy spirit prevents you from sinning, that you no longer sin, or in other words you think you have achieved moral perfection? (1 John 1:8) "If we make the statement: "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us." Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:Well then, please focus all your effort. I know what the Bible teaches and I follow that. quote:For Christians perfection is a goal that we should be striving hard to reach, do our utmost to over come the works of the flesh and pursue spiritual things. (Philippians 3:12-17) "Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus. Let us, then, as many of us as are mature, be of this mental attitude; and if YOU are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above [attitude] to YOU. At any rate, to what extent we have made progress, let us go on walking orderly in this same routine. Unitedly become imitators of me, brothers, and keep YOUR eye on those who are walking in a way that accords with the example YOU have in us." Notice that Paul was pursuing perfection, stretching toward the goal and urging the congregation to follow the example he set. Paul was telling them they needed to work to pursue spiritual things and they had to exercise self control, will power to leave the fleshly things behind. The holy spirit would aid them, but they had to supply the effort. quote:If we agree that Christians need to exercise self control and work hard to follow the example Christ set while asking in faith for the holy spirit help them to do so, then we are in agreement. My point is we need to work hard at over coming the desires of the flesh, but it is the holy spirit that will cause our efforts to succeed. Peter wrote about using all earnest effort to supply things like self-control so it is clear that while the spirit enables us to succeed, we need to really try and God will bless our efforts. (2 Peter 1:5-9) "Yes, for this very reason, by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light]," quote:No I actually do pray for you, I pray that God will open your heart and your eyes so that you may see the truth and be set free from the non biblical doctrines that you have been enslaved with. Jesus' sermon on the mound contained a number of commands such as loving your enemies which were addressed, (Luke 6:27) "But I say to YOU who are listening," so all who would follow Christ are expected to do their best to follow what Jesus said. If loving your enemies is not part of your religion, you are being misled, it is part of what Jesus taught his followers to do. We make a practice of showing love to our enemies, sometimes it even bears fruit and they become followers of Jesus Christ. Works are important if we are to please God, he judges us and rewards us in accord with the works we have done in his name. While such works must be done in faith with the right motives to be of any value, God values our efforts. (Romans 2:6-7) "And he will render to each one according to his works: everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good;" (Matthew 16:27) "he will recompense each one according to his behavior." (1 Peter 1:17) "the Father who judges impartially according to each one's work," So zero effort could mean zero reward, remember the slave who buried the talent? Christians are to work hard in doing good works and in putting on the fruitage of the spirit. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
I see that you failed to respond to any of the scriptures I cited to show that faith needs to produce works, I gather that you are unable to do so, which is telling, and I see that you have taken some scriptures out of context in an attempt to support your argument. You are basing your argument now on Abraham being saved by faith and not by works, referring to what Paul wrote on the subject. You are taking Paul out of context, what Paul was teaching about Abraham was that he was not saved by preforming works of the law since the law wasn't even given for another 430 years, Paul's point was that following the law code did not save anyone. He was not saying faith didn't need to produce any works. Look at what Paul wrote at Romans 4:3 "Abraham exercised faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Exercising faith is acting on that faith, with is doing a work of faith. Now look closely at what he wrote here- (Galatians 3:5-9) "He, therefore, who supplies YOU the spirit and performs powerful works among YOU, does he do it owing to works of law or owing to a hearing by faith? Just as Abraham "put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham. Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: "By means of you all the nations will be blessed." Consequently those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with faithful Abraham." Notice in the first verse, Paul is talking about God giving them the holy spirit which enable them to perform powerful works, works that are not according to works of the law but are due to faith. Do you see? Paul here is talking about two different sorts of works, works of the law and works of faith. Notice also that those who "adhere to faith" are the true sons of Abraham, adhering to the faith means following a code of conduct not based on the law but is based on the law of love. If we make no effort to adhere to the faith, we are not sons of Abraham and are not pleasing God. Jesus taught that we need to produce good works, you twisted the scripture in Matthew, here it is in the proper context. Notice that those who claimed to do works and are condemned are condemned because they false prophets in sheep's coverings that mislead people and may appear to be righteous, but are really wicked and rejected by God and Christ, and we can spot these by their bad works. (Matthew 7:15-27) "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. "Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. "Therefore everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass. Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great." Those condemned here are workers of lawlessness, they do wicked deeds and are not living by the law of the Christ. Notice that the man who hears the words of Christ and "does them" is saved, while the man who follows your line of thought of only hearing and not taking any actions suffers loss. The point here is that merely claiming to follow Christ is not enough, and we need actively follow Christ and not just passively listen.
quote:You are refusing to follow Jesus Christ, the Sermon on the Mount is the core of what it is to be a christian. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites, we certainly have to do better than that to please God. I can see how you have a big problem with the not swearing at all part, but it is not impossible, you don't see me cussing you out, so it certainly isn't impossible. But these commands are the standards we should be trying to reach, if we have faith and do our utmost the holy spirit will aid us in working closer to achieving righteousness in God's eye's. With man these things may be impossible, but with God all things are possible, now that is what real faith is. Real faith has POWER to change people and to do things, a false faith is just self delusion. If your faith doesn't move you to do good works or change you, as James stated it is dead. You keep talking about the context of the gospels, yet you miss the fact that when they talk about faith, they are always talking about the living kind of faith that produces works. That is what real faith is all about, it is a very powerful force, any thing less is nothing. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson (John 3:36) "He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Willowtree;
quote:Yes I certainty did, but I suspect you meant to use the word "avoided". Your post was rather long and I agree with you on the purpose of the Mosaic law, as I have stated several times before, so I saw no point in talking about things you should already know that I agree with you on. Actually you are the one who has been avoiding certain scriptures cited in earlier posts. quote:If that was so, then why would I bother quoting it? You really need to think things through more before you post. It is very apparent that you are hung up on a word, and that word is faith, shockingly you don't even understand the full biblical meaning of the word. The Bible uses words differently at times then they are used commonly, in scripture words sometimes have special or added meanings. Look at the word love, in the NT there are four Greek words used that each describe a specific type of love. The word love is used with a much greater depth of meaning then what you would find by looking it up in a dictionary. I hope you will agree with me that a love that doesn't move one to act in harmony with it, isn't real. That a person may say he loves God, but his conduct reveals whether he really does or not. It is the same way with the biblical use of the word "faith" Paul defined it in scripture, he stated that. (Hebrews 11:1) "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." This is the biblical definition of the word faith, and that definition of the word faith states that it includes or requires works as demonstration of one's faith. "elegkhos," the Greek word translated here as "evident demonstration," means to present evidence that proves something. The evidence of our faith is our works of faith. By our doing works of faith, we demonstrate our faith, if not, we do not have the biblical definition of faith. You seen to be using a definition of faith that merely equals "belief" which is not the full meaning of the word faith in the Bible. In scripture, faith is much more than belief, justing knowing about God is not enough. (James 2:19) "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder." I know you don't think James is inspired, yet you will have to agree with his point here, the demons certainly believe in God and Jesus and it doesn't save them. So too for us, merely believing is not going to save us, we have to have faith that is demonstrated or exercised. Our actions have to be in harmony with our words, or else we would be hypocrites and condemned. (Matthew 24:51) "and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites." God hates hypocrites, and that is what you would be if you say you are a Christian and yet do not try to live as one. If your church is teaching all you need is faith without any need of doing the works of faith, it is a hypocrite factory. For how can you say one thing and do another without being a hypocrite? The scriptures are clear on the point that it take effort to be a Christian and stay one. It is not a case of just having 'faith' or believing and the spirit does everything for you.(Hebrews 12:1-2) "let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus." (Jude 3) "I found it necessary to write YOU to exhort YOU to put up a hard fight for the faith" (Galatians 5:19-21) "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom." (Philippians 2:12) "keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;" If we practice the works of the flesh instead of the fruits of the spirit, we will not inherit the kingdom. It is by holding to the faith and being careful to maintain fine conduct and doing God's will that we work out our salvation, we do so with the fear that if we fail to do so, we will suffer lost. Also if you believe that it is not necessary to maintain fine conduct, you could be willfully practicing sin, which has dire consequences. (Hebrews 10:26) "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left," Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Hangdawg13;
I have been having a rather long and so far fruitless discussion with Willowtree over the issue of faith and works, our difference is on whether a person needs to produce works or make an effort to live by Bible standards. Willowtree's position is that you don't need to do either, while I have been citing scripture to show that is not what the Bible teaches. While you and I no doubt differ on points, I doubt you wish to support the extreme view Willowtree has taken. Since the relationship between works and faith is not clearly understood by most today, it will probably take a number of exchanges just to determine accurately what your position on the matter is. My position on what is required for salvation is very nicely outlined under the subject "What Does God Require of Us?" at this link. http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm Which got Willowtree all worked up because he believes that belief is the only requirement. One the subject of "sealing" you referred to (Ephesians 4:30) "Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed" notice the warning to those who were already sealed not to grieve the holy spirit. The reason for this warning is explained in Hebrews.(Hebrews 6:4-6) "For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance," So even those who have been sealed can fall away. I should also mention that there are two types of sealing mention in the Bible, the first mentioned above is the first sealing which is provisional on remaining faithful, the second sealing is final, given when a person dies faithful or has passed enough tests of fire that their faithfulness has been verified beyond any doubt showing that they will always be faithful. As to what happens to those who do not inherit the kingdom. (Revelation 21:7-8) "Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death." If you die you have the hope of the resurrection, but if you do not have that hope, you have died twice and are doomed to sleep forever in death. Death is simply not being alive, it is the opposite of existence, it is nonexistence and for those without hope of a resurrection, it is oblivion. Many believe in mythical stories about death, but in the Bible those who are dead are said to "sleeping" and the only way out of death is a resurrection based on the ransoming power of Jesus Christ's shed blood. Which is why Christ is the only hope of salvation. Death and "the second death" (also called the lake of fire), are also described in Revelation chapter 20. (Revelation 20:14-15) "And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." The reason death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, is because this is after the resurrection has occurred and they are empty, here at this point there is no one still sleeping in the first death, so they don't exist any more since they are not needed. Those who are alive at this time will no longer die, and if any were to be unfaithful after achieving perfection, would be guilty of willful sin and would die the second death. Since you can not throw the concept of death in a literal lake, it also shows the symbolism used here in Revelation, a book told in signs, and that the description of the lake of fire is just symbolism of eternal destruction and is not a literal description of a mythical burning hell as many have mistakenly thought. So to try to keep this discussion of faith/works on topic, Willowtree would have you believe that you need not worry about sinning since the spirit will take care of it, while in the Bible we see that if we fail to serve God with our whole heart and our whole mind and whole soul, we would risk being destroyed forever. So when confronted with the temptation to do wrong, we need to pray and try with all our strength to resist. If we make no effort to resist, we could even be viewed by God as sinning willfully which is worthy of the second death. God is the judge, but those who have committed sins that are beyond forgiveness have no desire to repent since they have made a willful choice, so even if some were to feel that they are guilty of unforgivable sins, they probably haven't if they feel remorse since those who are willful feel no remorse. While we will all sin many times, as long as we do our best not to and are repentant, we will be forgiven. But not to even make the effort to live by Bible standards is unwise in the extreme. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Hangdawg13;
You are probably thinking of the following scripture.(Romans 8:35-39) "Who will separate us from the love of the Christ? Will tribulation or distress or persecution or hunger or nakedness or danger or sword? . . . nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God's love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." The point in the Bible on this subject is that if we do our utmost to remain faithful, there is nothing that can separate up from the love of the Christ. This same thought is referred to here in this verse. (1 Corinthians 10:13) "God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it."See, as long as we do our best, God will never allow us to be tempted or tested beyond what we could reasonably be expected to with stand. You have to remember that this doesn't exclude torture and death, Christians are expected to follow the example Christ set, this just means that God will not allow the testing to go on beyond what humans can take. As Christians we need to remain faithful if we are to be saved and receive everlasting life.(Matthew 10:22) "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." Paul also stressed the need to endure and used himself as an example. (1 Corinthians 9:27) "I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow." So Paul certainly didn't believe in one saved always saved. The Bible is clear on what happens to those who do not follow Christ or stop following him.(Ezekiel 18:4) "The soul that is sinningit itself will die" (Romans 6:23) "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." Failure to keep following Christ would certainly be a sin, and you can see what the above verses state on the out come of those who sin. Since we all sin to one degree or another, it is only through Christ's shed blood that we have hope, if we fail to follow Christ we lose that hope and would die in our sins. Hope that clears it up for you, if you have any questions let me know and I will see if I can answer them for you. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6277 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Hangdawg13;
I recommend that you continue in your study of the Bible and learn what it teaches for yourself. (Acts 17:10-12) "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers," One needs to know the scriptures if one is not to be mislead by non-biblical teachings. (Matthew 15:9) "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'" On whether or not salvation is irrevocable, think of Judas, chosen to be one of the 12 apostles. He was personally picked by Jesus Christ after Christ had spent a night in prayer, he saw many of the miracles Jesus did and was a close associate of Jesus. But was his salvation or choosing irrevocable? Notice what Jesus said about Judas. (Matthew 26:24) "woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born." So if Judas would have been better off never have been born, he certainly has no salvation or hope. But you need to find these things for yourself, you need to study the Bible with someone who knows the scriptures. I learned what I know from Jehovah's Witnesses, we offer free home Bible studies without any obligation to any one who is interested in learning about the Bible. I suggest that you ask the next Witness who calls at your door for a Bible study, or just look up Kingdom Hall or Jehovah's Witnesses in your local phone book and call and ask. Through a systematic study of the Bible your knowledge could be increased by a factor of 10x or 100x in as little as a year. (John 17:3) "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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