WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM

Whoa there... buddy, I "hate" when people use the passage about God loving Jacob and God hating Esau for this dangerous argument. I understand that you understand what you are saying, but many people would use this to justify many evils.I believe it is wrong to believe that God is emotional in the sense of human emotion. Human emotions are unstable, time-bound, and often sinful, but God never changes and never sins.It is impossible for finite beings such as ourselves to completely understand an infinite God. We can only come to approximations of greater and greater accuracy. "Hate" and "love in this passage is an anthropopathism: ascribing human characteristics to God so that we can better understand him. The word perhaps deceivingly translated as hate conveys God's attitude towards Esau.

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"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2

I respect your arguments, Jar, and I really want to know what is your interpretation of the first chapter of John?"In the beginning [which was not a beginning] was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God...and also other passages that point to God being truth and scripture also being truth?

What did he say?

cool

Ah... Willowtree... I like some of the things you say. I'm sorry, but, perhaps you should read Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" You'll never get anywhere with people talking to them like this even if you are right.

If we have believed in Christ as Lord and savior then we are not condemned. End of story. How do I know? God promised us this and he doesn't break his promises.If we have never had the opportunity to make this decision... I'm not so sure what happens, but I would tend to think we are not condemned.You are right. God is not petty. Perhaps thats another reason we are not to get into petty arguments like this. He simply wants us to love and obey him and not argue with each other about him. He acted because the centurion believed Jesus could heal him, not because the centurion believed Apollos could heal him. I think its clear what the centurion's belief system was from that point on: Christ is Lord.Aside from morality (Laws of Divine Establishment) I think theology is the main focus of Christianity. We always want to know God more. The more we know him the more we can love him. Whoa... IMHO this is blasphemy.

Jar, I'm starting to wonder about you... more specifically who it is you're talking to.You are now the third person I know who has told me they "talk to God" and God talks back, and your views are completely opposite theirs.Who should I trust?Sorry, I think I will stick to my Bible.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-13-2004 11:34 PM

John 3:18 [Jesus said] "Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they don't believe in God's only son."John 8:24 [Jesus said] "If you don't believe that I am the one, you will die because of your sins."Mark 16:16 [Jesus said] "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned."Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not from yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."Ephesians 1:13 "You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a guarantee of our inheiritance until the redemption of God's own possession, to his praise and glory.

Just to interject something here that may have been overlooked. When the Bible says God said, "Jacob I loved, but esau I hated" This is an anthropopathism: ascribing a human emotion or characteristic to God so that we can better understand him.Hate is the best word that can describe how God's justice and righteousness deal with the unrighteous.

Eh herm... back to my old self again.Thought I'd interject my understanding of salvation here.A person that has faith in Christ, even a mustard seed's worth at only one point in life, will go to heaven. There are passages such as that in Ephesians that talk about the point of belief in the past tense as being the point at which we are sealed with God the Holy Spirit. I am fairly certain that once a person has believed, nothing they do can keep them from heaven. As you pointed out: There is a present action "keep working out your salvation". By continuing to work out our salvation through obediance of God's Word, we will store treasures for ourselves in heaven. The future tense, "will be saved", refers to the time when we will enter our resurrection body and recieve our inheiritance.So there is past tense: point of first belief; present progressive tense: producing fruit of the spirit; future tense: recieving future blessings. I think this is an important distinction to make when reading passages on salvation.If we abandon God and his Word we will not inherit our future blessings of the kingdom of heaven, but we will be there. I think when it says we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven, this is like letting someone into your house, but not letting them touch or have anything that is there. Those who do not produce the fruit of the spirit are the "loser" believers who have no inheritance.When we come to the judgment seat at the end of history everything will be brought to account. All the human good and sin is burned. It doesn't matter anymore since Christ has already been judged for it. All that matters is: a) did you believe in Christ?, b) what did you do with the spiritual life he gave you (in other words what Spiritual fruit did you produce)? The extent to which a believer exectues the spiritual life is the extent to which a person recieves reward in the end.

Well, you make some good points.I tend to lean towards believing that once a person has believed in Christ, nothing can take away his salvation, not even his own subsequent disbelief. This is what I have gathered through my study. There are a few more ambiguous passages that seem to say otherwise, however there are some very clear ones that I think support my position.However, you may well be right. I'm not 100% sure I've got it right.

I am still not completely sure, but over the last year I have gradually been moving towards the viewpoint you have on salavtion despite my years of instruction that salvation is irrevocable.