Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.

There can be no free-will because the outcome is already determined. God is omniscient, right? He knows what's going to happen, therefore there is only the illusion of free-will for the individual making the decision. If god has seen an outcome in advance, it is predestined, if it is predestined, it isn't free-will.

In his new book, Richard Dawkins points out that omniscience and omnipotence are incompatible. Is God able to change his mind in the future?

Try looking at it this way. Lets assume that Adam had free choice (Jesus, "the second Adam" had too but lets leave that). Adam chose against God and instead ate an apple infected with a disease (he was told of this beforehand.."On the day you eat..)So Adam is infected through his own choice - God is not implicated. Now Adam transfers this infection to all his offspring. Every gets the disease and Adam is to blame for giving it to them. This disease means that mans nature is geared to sin - just as a cats nature is to kill mice. Its called a sinful nature.As soon as a person is able they will act according to their nature. They will do things that God finds objectionable - just as my cat leaving a half eaten bird on my bed is objectionable to me. In that sense it is not their fault that they act so - even if objectionable. They didn't give themselves this nature - Adam did. And it would be as unjust to punish people in Hell forever for doing that which they did by a nature as it would be for me to punish my cat for half eaten birds. When they die God would have to simply let that be that - we would cease to exist. We wouldn't exist anymore and would be back to the place before we did exist. Nothing lost, nothing gained.But men are not left completely alone by God. They, unlike cats killing mice have this thing called conscience. Conscience is God operating on a person with a sinful nature calling them away from that nature and empowering them to do so. If a person sins in this instance it was because they chose to ignore the call of conscience which convinced them not to sin. And for this they can justly be punished. Not because they were born with this nature but because they chose to sin when they didn't have to. Sin only becomes sin if a choice is made to do so. It is different than simply acting according to animal nature.There is a fine balance to be struck by God. Yes, attempt to restore things to the way intended in the beginning. But not push so far as to compel a person who does not want to be restored, to be restored. By chosing to call people through conscience God is making it possible for them to sin - instead of them just acting with animal nature. He is taking the risk that they will refuse in which case he risks them not being able to avail of simple non-existance but puts eternal damnation as a possibility for them. To balance that negative risk he places a positive - eternal bliss - in there too.Gods options:a) objectionable animals who cease to exist after they dieb) the risky business of objectionable persons who might go one or other way.He chose the latter. It is his right to do so. He's God.

so...when the grandmaster who anticipates so brilliantly his novice opponent's moves sets up a trap for him and the opponent steps right in it and gets checkmated, would you say that the novice chose to lose the game or that the grandmaster made him lose it ?eagerly awaiting your answer.

But why did he let ME get this deadly disease in the first place? I had done nothing wrong and had not had not even had the opportunity to do anything wrong.In Gods eyes we are all guilty until proven innocent. Why?Preventative medicine is the name of the game and medical negligence would still be the verdict. I might need a lawyer.

Ah, the Bart Simpson Defense: "I could look into the future, but I don't wanna".An omnipotent being can see without looking, so how can it prevent itself from being omniscient?

Yes it does.If you have a choice, a or b, & god knows that you are going to "choose" b, then you have no choice but to choose b. You cannot choose "a", you are not exercising free will even though you might think you are.It's like watching a movie, does he pull the trigger or doesn't he? He does what is written in the script, & can do no other.Mark

All you have done is make the sentence longer. If god forknew the outcome it must have been predestined.Mark

How can foreknowledge not be predestination? How can something that is absolutely known about the future not be predestined?

No, humans agree what the laws of logic are, for quite obvious reasons. What we have is religious nutjobs being unable to accept that not only does the evidence not support you, but neither does logic. Ergo, in your opinion, not only does a requirement for evidence go out of the window, but so does logic, too.In another thread I am involved in a discussion with another atheist who maintains that religion actually does no harm, or at least not enough that we should be bothered about..

Does your god know all about me before I am even born?Does your god know what I will choose before I choose it?Is your god the sole creator of life?

It proves that your godlet is a mean, vicious, picayune little bling-bling pimp daddy worthy of no honor or respect.

It does show how vapid your argument is.If your god knew my choices before I was even created...and s/he/it created me anyway...then there was no choice for me in anything.

You have also shown your belief in an evil god. If your god KNEW that George would die an atheist and allowed his creation anyway...then George was created solely to be damned.

Sorry but simply more nonsense. You made a clear statement which I quoted in full in Re: few questions (Message 108) for all to read. Your little joke of a godlet creates people solely to be damned. That is not something to be respected or worshiped but an evil little demon. More something to be pitied than awesome.It is sad that so many Christians seem to worship such a pitiful joke and think it is GOD.

So, you're saying that God DIDN'T know what the final outcome would be? Thanks, that makes much more sense.

Thank you for once again confirming that your godlet is an evil little demon.What a pitiful little godlet you worship. How sad.