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Author
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Topic: What makes so many people hate God
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
As i have started to look through some of the topics and conversations going on i am saddened greatly by the way i see God's word talked about. I am curious to know what makes so many of you so strongly believe the bible to be a fairytale, not to be believed?
Some one said, I wish I could remember who, that if you show me why you do not believe in foreign gods, I will show you why I do not believe in yours. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
I think it was more like "If you can understand why you don't believe in two gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in one. we are both athiests - I just believe in one less God than you" ...or words to that effect 
Right, that's the one. Any idea who it was? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I don't mean this in a pompous way, but have you read the new testament?
Yes. Several times.
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Unfortunately mans words are not the way to prove that God exists
Now that we've got that straight, you won't be appealing to the Bible anymore.
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only God can prove that he exists.
Yes, you are correct. Were God an actual being he could certainly prove his existence to us, yet he hasn't.
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Usually he will speak through his word which is the Bible.
The Bible was written by men. I thought that man's words were not the way to prove the existence of God? If you have some evidence that men did not write the Bible please present it.
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Otherwise he speaks through the lives of those who serve him.
Wow.... scary.... Have you read the Old Testament?
[quote]I believe God is almighty therefore i don't feel i have to defend his existence for him.[/b][/quote] Yet here you are. Why?
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He is quite capable of doing that himself.
But thus far hasn't.
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I know he's real because he comforts me in hard time, when i pray he answers, he speaks to me through his written word, and he has drastically changed my life.
How do you respond to those who claim such comfort and guidance from other gods? If the argument works for you, it also works for all those other gods, and you can't all be right. Your proposition is therefore self contradictory and logically invalid.
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Unfortunately how do i prove that to you?
Prove that you feel comforted and that you feel that God talks to you? I believe that part, but it isn't an arguent for the existence of God.
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God states over and over through the bible that he is the only God.
Here we go again appealing to man's words.
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Which is why i do not believe in foreign gods.
Consider: If I wrote a book and in it claimed that the book was REALLY written by God, would you accept it as such? Nope, not a chance. But you do not apply the same rationality to the Bible. Do you accept the Koran? The Book of Mormon? Doubtful... yet both of these books claim divine inspiration.
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Again unfortunately if you don't believe the bible is the word of God it's hard to prove.
And if you do believe the bible is the word of God it isn't proof. It is an assuption. Any use of that assumption in subsequent arguments constitutes circular reasoning and is invalid.
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I wish i could do like Elijah and have a contest like they did in 1kings unfortunately i am not to test my God.
Terribly convenient isn't it?
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Maybe try reading the story of elijah. God told Elijah to tell Ahab it wouldn't rain in that region until Elijah said it would and left for 3 years .. maybe read then from 1 kings 18. the whole chapter. There is a place where God has proven to his people that he is the one and only God.
Its a story. It is a fable. Do you believe everything you read? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
for 1 yes the bible is written by men.
As I said, strike that piece of evidence. We are not appealling to the words of man.
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dictated by God
And you know this because the Bible says so, and we aren't appealling to the words of men. More accurately, you believe this because you believe that the Bible says so. From what I can tell, it is only a few portions that claim to have been inspired.
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no i do not believe everything i read i only believe the Word of God.
Which, of course, was written by men, and we aren't appealling to the words of men.
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yes i have read the old testament. i love the old testament. what about it don't you like?
Well... how about the slaughter of babies in Exodus which was brought about by GOD's hardening of the Pharoah's heart? How about that Lot's offering his daughter to be gang-raped is ok? How about the slavery, the genocide, the murder, the draconian legal system? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 23 of 225 (21936)
11-08-2002 8:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by gene90
11-08-2002 7:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But would you willingly expose them to danger? Or even stop feeding them?
Or drowned the lot of them in very big rain-storm? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by gene90, posted 11-08-2002 7:52 PM | | gene90 has not replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 29 of 225 (21986)
11-09-2002 12:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by gene90
11-09-2002 12:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Yes, Gene, as a matter of fact I would and have done so.[/QUOTE] [/B] I find that disturbing.
No kidding. Chara, Please remember that God has not merely let his kids go there own way and get into trouble, but has actively killed them in great numbers on numerous occasions. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 11-09-2002]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 12:20 PM | | gene90 has not replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 33 of 225 (22024)
11-09-2002 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by Chara
11-09-2002 2:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
It appears to me that one of those reasons at least is that you perceive HIM as being unjust.
I don't percieve HIM as being anything. I don't hate God. To hate God I'd have to believe in God.
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I have NEVER been treated unjustly by God, on the contrary I have experienced his grace (unmerited favor) and I have experienced his mercy (not getting what I deserve).
Consider: If good things happen, God is helping you. If bad things happen, God is punishing you yet still treating you justly. Whatever happens, God is 'just' but this is simply by definition. You have defined things such that God is always just. It is meaningless. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by Chara, posted 11-09-2002 2:55 PM | | Chara has replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 35 of 225 (22031)
11-09-2002 4:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by Chara
11-09-2002 4:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
John, in one of the previous posts you said, "God has killed ... his children" [can't remember the exact words]. This statement appears to me that you actually do believe that He exists.
LOL.... This is really grasping at straws. I was speaking from the point of view within the analogy. I assumed, for the sake of argument.
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You assumed that was what I was saying.
And you go on to explain that that assumption was in fact correct.
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God is ALWAYS just. That is part of what makes Him God. I don't find that meaningless at all, rather comforting actually.
It is meaningless because you can feed anything into the equation and it works. My bicycle-- a temporal representation of the Great Universal Bicycle-- is always just and treats me fairly. It is meaningless because it is untestable. I get a raise; I thank my bicycle. I lose my job; I am being punished by my bicycle. No circumstances can invalidate the belief, hence it is in fact meaningless. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by Chara, posted 11-09-2002 4:10 PM | | Chara has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 5:19 PM | | John has replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 40 of 225 (22041)
11-09-2002 5:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by gene90
11-09-2002 5:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Which is why idolatry was so popular in the Old Testament. It gives the illusion of generating results.
Just precise as your religion does... That is exactly the point. You have no means of determining that your faith is different than this idolatry. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 5:19 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 5:48 PM | | John has replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 42 of 225 (22044)
11-09-2002 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by gene90
11-09-2002 5:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
Your analogy is good as long as your role in it is passive (attribute everything to the bike retroactively) but when you ask the bike to intervene it breaks down.
No it doesn't, Gene. I ask the bike for a new car. I get the car. Therefore, the bike answered my prayer. I ask my bike for a new car. I don't get the car. The bike still answered my prayer, it just said "No!" ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 5:48 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 6:24 PM | | John has replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 46 of 225 (22049)
11-09-2002 6:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by gene90
11-09-2002 6:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
You're building a strawman with this one.
No, I'm not Gene.
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If you ask for reasonable things and always get no that would seem to invalidate the belief system, wouldn't it?
It doesn't matter. This is why it isn't a straw man. Ask for anything, reasonable or unreasonable. If you get it, God answers the prayer. If you don't get it God still answered the prayer but said "No!" It is unfalsifiable. It is blatantly self-fulfilling.
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I never implied that god(s) were your servants to give you whatever you want, and I never implied that you could expect what you wanted every time (I used the word "consistently")
And that is exactly what makes the belief unfalsifiable. You have an easy out "God in his infinite understanding decided that it was better for me that...." No matter what happens, your belief is supported. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 6:24 PM | | gene90 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 7:06 PM | | John has replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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Message 49 of 225 (22059)
11-09-2002 9:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by gene90
11-09-2002 7:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But what if you consistently get "no"? Do you think I wouldn't take notice?
I hope you'd notice, but you won't get consistent no's. Nor will you get consistent yes's. You'll get a mix of the two.
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Plus, for the sake of argument, what if somebody made an experiment out of it and did a statistical analysis of the result?
It would be a difficult study to pull off, but would be quite interesting.
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For the sake of argument, what if they found out the prayer made a difference? Wouldn't that eliminate your claim of it being unfalsifiable?
Yes. Though it wouldn't tell us why. And then there is this:
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.valleyskeptic.com/pray.htm ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by gene90, posted 11-09-2002 7:06 PM | | gene90 has not replied |
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
I asked why the bible seems so ridiculous to so many. Why is it that any other historical documents recovered would be considered believable but somehow the bible isn't?
The bible is as valid as any of those other documents. Do you consider The Egyptian Book of the Dead to be absolute fact? What about the Upanishads? The problem you are having is not that the Bible isn't on par with these, the problem is that the Bible IS on par with them.
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The only point i've seen is that hells handmaiden thinks that it can't be God's word because man has been the scribe, and therefore could be inacurate.
More like, how do you know that God was working through those scribes? Besides which, the Bible is inaccurate in many places-- not much of a testament for divine inspiration.
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I believe that an All powerful God could keep his intended meaning through the translations between languages.
Do you even know the history of the Bible(s) you own? Do you know the sequence of the translations? And what was edited, and by whom? And why?
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but yes to someone who doesn't believe that God is all powerful or even exists, then yes i can see where you get that point.
Then you must also understand why quoting the Bible is meaningless as a proof of its own validity,a nd of the validity of its God.
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So is that the only reason to not believe the bible?
You need more?
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But as yet i have yet to see any overwhelming evidence proving the inacuracy of the bible. Nothing that couldn't be interperted either way.
You mean that whole global-flood-that-leaves-no-evidence-whatsoever doesn't do the trick? Or the two versions of creation in Genesis? Or the two different geneologies for Jesus? Or the utter lack of evidence for the plagues in Egypt and the absolute desolation which would have been caused by the exodus of a million slaves? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
so i've decided science and the scientific process is a fairytale. so now prove to me the bible and creation are incorrect.
And what are the criteria for this proof? ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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John
Inactive Member
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quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
sorry that statement was just supposed to point out where i'm coming from
And I am pointing out where you need to be coming from. You have rejected science. You have essentially rejected that knowledge is gained by observation and experiment. This being the case, precisely where do we get knowledge? And, of course, how do we distinguish between correct knowledge and false knowledge? You obviously believe that some knowledge is false. Something to think about: You must do this without appealing to observation and/or experiment, or you drop back into the realm of science and we can use science to disprove your case.
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because what believe is based on the bible
Why? Cause someone told you it was true? You have got to be kidding me?
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because i believe there is more to this world than the physical
'k. Where? How? What? You must have reasons?
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the physical to me scientific process is flawed
You haven't said how it is flawed. I am not really willing to take your word for it.
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there is a variable you cannot control when you experiment so how can your data that you gather could lead you to a false theory.
Yes, and scientists are aware of this. This is why experiments must be reproducible. ------------------ http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
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