Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?

To Hangdawg13:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Where does God come from? How was the universe made? Why did God create Satan/evil? Why is the bible contradictory? Where is Heaven? Where is Hell? Do stillborns go directly to Heaven? Why is Adam and Eve's sin passed on to me? Why did God smite all those people why died in the great flood even though He must know full well that they would become sinful when he created them? Why did God create cancer?Ask your pastor the above questions and you'll see how thoughts are discouraged in Christianity. Personally speaking, I observed that the atheist and agnostic positions are usually taken as a conclusion by people who have studied some religious teachings. To blatantly declare that something cannot exist without valid thoughts, reasonings or research would be indulging in ignorance, and this is shunted regardless of what position you take. To unquestioningly accept a premise without valid reasonings, research and evidence is gullible, regardless of what position you take. Christians tend to bring this up a lot.To me, no one's thinking is valid or everyone's thinking is valid. Take your pick.The only times when we would ever be in conflict would be when: 1)you tell me that I'm going to hell because I don't share your thinking, or 2) if you actively force me to accept you thinking as my own, or 3) if you prohibit me from pursuing what I think is right or enjoy doing , even though it doesn't affect you or anyone/anything else. Well, this IS the basic premise. I think therefore I am. How basic can you get? So be it:Death is meaningful.Death is a dreadfully effective tool for eliminating the existence of those who cannot sustain themselves in this world. This achieves the purpose of reallocating resources to organisms which can better make use of them and proliferate.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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It seems most people participating this thread believe that this is what Christianity does too. In Christianity, thought is never discouraged.

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Of course it is, especially your sort of science/reality-denying Christianity.Have you been encouraged to learn about Biology from professional Biologists? Does your Christian college employ professors with diverse views, both professionally and philosophically? Does your college admit students with diverses views? Does your pastor challenge the logic of the basic principal of Biblical infallibility in any of his sermons?

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or that we are all here as products of chance

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...random mutation PLUS natural selection. Not chance alone.Oh, and by the way, it isn't only Agnostics and Athiests who accept evolution. Most Christians do. That's because the evidence supporting it is overwhelming, like the evidence for the Germ Theory of Disease and the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System, and the Atomic Theory of Matter is overwhelming.

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

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Some people are addicted to the internet, others to cigarettes, others to alcohol. None of them are breaking the law, all of them are conducting their lives in ways I do not approve of. Yet they are obviously enjoying themselves and not affecting me, so who am I to argue?

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Actually, additction to cigarettes affects me daily. The trash smokers leave everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE, in the form of discarded butts and packaging dirties up the sidewalks and streets every single town I have ever been to. I also have to smell it daily. I used to like to go out dancing but my eyes sting, my throat hurts, and I get a headache from being in such a smoke-filled place for hours, so I don't get to go out dancing anymore. My health insurance rates are higher because of the huge cost of treating smokers' illnesses.Alcohol addition also raises my healthcare costs for similar reasons as smoking.Internet addiction probably has little affect upon me directly, but I am sure it has bad effects upon families and children in general.

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If we are to criticise religion based on how it affects its followers, and in turn affect the government or the economy, then I would say that we are taking it a bit too far.

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Why is that "too far"? A big reason we are in the situation in America with Bush that we are is because of his fundamentalist Christian thinking.

Thank you for your reply. I agree. I believe that if something I believe in is true, then pursuing every detail and every controversy will eventually reveal the veracity and depth of it in new and interesting ways. Of course if this does not happen I would quit believing... And after all my questioning (and I have asked myself pretty much every question agnostics/atheists on here have asked) I have become a stronger believer, not an atheist or agnostic.Of course, many who start questioning might not carry the questions to their conclusions or might not have enough knowledge of what they believe in to know what they are questioning, so for these people questioning might destroy their faith altogether. THIS is why authority is important. People must hold off questioning long enough to fully understand things. Otherwise they could learn nothing. In a class in school, you cannot doubt everything the prof teaches you or you will learn nothing. I agree. However, as Crashfrog pointed out in some other thread, if you doubt everything, you can know nothing. I'm fiddling with the idea that doubt becomes the opiate for the intellectual. By shoving more and more things over into the area of "doubt" one no longer has to deal with them, because they are an uncertainty. And why waste one's time with what may or may not be? By doubting, one ignores the disconcerting possibilities of the existence of God, accountability, an afterlife, aliens, demons, angels, etc... I am sometimes the opposite of a doubter. I tend to assume things are true or have a basis or origin in reality unless I have a reason to believe they are not. Humans are not truly creative as in the sense of creating something or imagining something without some tie to reality. Humans can only analyze and synthesize information in new ways (break it down into elements and then reassemble into something else). Because of this I assume that everything has SOME basis in reality even if it must be traced back through several cycles of analysis and synthesis to find the connection. Yep. Yea! Well, to be honest, MOST people are not critical thinkers or have no interest thinking critically about everything. For them, they generally believe in all kinds of things without questioning, which is why mass media is so powerful. So religious fundies are only one group of people out of many that has earned the reputation for not thinking critically. As for myself, I was asking my mommy what atoms and electrons and quarks were made of when I was in kindergarten, so I tend to ask questions about all sorts of things, and yet I am a "fundamentalist Christian". And fundamentalist Christianity mandates that the Christian "study to show thyself approved..."But to get back to your statement, I think accepting anything without thinking about it can be dangerous.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-18-2004 01:12 PM

Can you tell this to the various creationists who come diving in here while knowing nothing at all about evolutionary biology, cosmology, physics, geology, simple logic (and even spelling and grammer).You can mention it now and then to the Dawkinists who think that disproving the flood or young earth disproves God too.

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Where does God come from? How was the universe made? Why did God create Satan/evil? Why is the bible contradictory? Where is Heaven? Where is Hell? Do stillborns go directly to Heaven? Why is Adam and Eve's sin passed on to me? Why did God smite all those people why died in the great flood even though He must know full well that they would become sinful when he created them? Why did God create cancer?

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Ask your pastor the above questions and you'll see how thoughts are discouraged in Christianity.

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1.No one knows
2.Science is finding out the answers how God made the universe.
3.The bible teaches that Satan rebelled against God. God's love for mankind has been clearly demonstrated at the cross and wants to reconcile man to himself. Freewill is a God given gift to choose.
4. In a scientific context, Heaven is likely outside our dimension (our space and time), hell is not very clear from the bible what its like. Most peoples' images are from Greek mythology (Hades, underworld), but Jesus referred it to a place like a garbage dump in his parables. Its likely not a place, but a state of eternal separation from God. Jesus in his treeachings about God's kingdom was 'Near', not really a realm, but a glimpse of what his kingdom was like ( healings etc was a glimpse of whatr God;s SHALOM was about = wholeness)
5: Still borns I believe go to heaven, Psalm 139. Jesus made it quite clear his kingdom belonged to Children!
6: None of us are perfect, because we are human, we all make wrong choices when it comes to the 'S' word. Its in our nature. Thats why Jesus carried the can for us to pay for our sin.
7. Biblically speaking, God had enough with mankind's wickedness and sent a flood to make a fresh start.
8. Cancer is one of the most dreadful diseases. We are not immortal. Bodies die eventually like all living things. In stoneage times, the life expectancy was about 35 years. This has now been stretched with modern medicine, better diets etc to something like 75 years plus in developed countries. Cells are replaced in your body approx every 7 years and mistakes happen, cancer causing chemicals can switch on genes to go into uncontrollable cell division and presto, you have cancer..
But I believe in a God that loves me. He does heal the sick (my mother was healed of a chronic illness in 1986 instantly). I will die of whatever eventually, but I know who has the answers even if I don't.

I believe Mike King did a great job of answering your questions. Why would I drill my pastor with this line of questioning unless I was trying to be an ass? Well, then you must assume that no one's thinking is valid, because everyone's thinking contradicts everyone else's at some point making it invalid if it is all equally valid. And following this assumption, you have no way of knowing whether or not you're right, because your own thinking is invalid! In other words, you know nothing and all your reasoning is nonsense! no comment. Neither I nor anyone can do that. However, if there are more of us than you, we can make you abide by our rules if you want to live in our society. I would never do that. However, a society's moral standards will affect my kids moral standards. Ah, I am glad I'm correct on this. Don't think I'm dogging you or atheists, but I thought I'd point out that this IS essentially the original sin of arrogance. How..... interesting... Well, if I had the same viewpoint as you, being the immensely magnanimous person I am, I would do my best to make my life meaningful by promptly killing myself and reallocating my resources to my fellow organisms.

HangDawg If you have no children I will nominate you for a Darwin award provided you change your viewpoint.

To schrafinator:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post:By the internet/alcohol/cigarette examples, I was attempting to highlight the fact that obsessions CAN exist with no dire consequences for other people. It has always been my philosophy that everyone should be tolerant of other people's beliefs, as long as they do not affect them.Your point about being subjected to second-hand smoke is a valid one, but you have to concede that it is possible for courteous smokers to NOT leave ash and butts lying around or to refrain from smoking in your vicinity. The fact that some smokers (or most, if you like) are rude, insensitive morons does not mean that smoking should be banned.Smoking and indulging in alcohol are not healthy activities to engage in, but neither is over-eating or not exercising - but these activities are not penalised with respect to health care cover applications.All in all, I believe that religion is a choice that people have the rights to make without my criticism - as long as they refrain from bothering me and everyone/everything else. When they over-step their boundary, I believe they're fair game. Well, the situation is USA is actually that they/you have elected a president who is, in my humble opinion, a moron. It matters not where he got his ideas from. A president can be a devout Muslim or Christian Fundamentalist or a Satanist or Atheist. But he/she can STILL be a good president by intellectually separating what's good for the nation from his/her own personal values. The fact that Bush was unable to do so is an obvious lacking on his part, and this is perhaps (I believe) not necessarily reflective of Christian Fundamentalism.Of course, you may advance the argument that Bush was unable to separate his own religious values from his job BECAUSE of the nature of his religion, yet I'm not sure if you're going to take that step.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

To Mike_King:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post:You seem to be knowledgable in the realms of Christian doctrines, so I hope that you would be able to elaborate on your answers to my questions - to be read with reference to your post:1) So...we're going to leave it at that? No one knows. Period? That's not very thought-provoking...2) Why is science finding out how God made the universe as opposed to finding out how the universe materialised or came into existence? If we can find out how God made the universe, can't we then in turn find out how God was "made"?3) Not so. God being omniscience must have foreseen the rebellion of Satan when He made Lucifer. This implies that God created Lucifer with Satan in mind.4) These are...claims? Assertions? Where did you get this from?5) Noooo...what about origninal sin?6) Your explanation is a non-sequitur to my question.7) But God's omniscience must have foreseen man's fall into the abyss of wickedness PRIOR to the creation of humanity. Sounds to me like God made human just so that He can kill them.8) Again, a non-sequitur to my question.I am happy for your mother's "miraculous recovery" (pun intended), but your answers disappoint me. Some of them fail to address the question, while others imply an inconsistent Christian God.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

To Hangdawg13:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Au contrare. Please read my reply to his post. Why wouldn't you want to know the answers to the those questions? Why would your pastor be annoyed with answering them? Doesn't this demonstrate Yaro's point about Christianity inhibiting critical thinking? Philosophy does not assume that there is a perfect model or reasoning to solve any problems. All "thinkings" are flawed, to some extend. It's just that Christians are unable to grasp this concept and apply it to their own religion.A line of thinking is "accepted" or used if it is presented as the least flawed of those presented, after strigent debates and aggresive discussions. Sometimes, two or more theories may possess comparable merits and that's where dilemmas enter stage.In answer to you, nothing in debates is assumed to be perfectly valid - just relatively. That has always been the case. Consider the Amish community. And the problem with that is....? You know the good thing about societies? If you don't like one, go to another! Riiight....and saying that you are correct about anything is the secondary sin of flamboyance by my books (this is a joke). By the way, the definition of "atheism" does not include "placing all the trust on yourself".Coincidentally, my philosophy DOES place all my trust on myself, and I'm technically not an atheist. (Side note: I think many atheists share my philosophy but do not know it). Wahahahahahahaha......you asked for an example of "meaningful" by my standards. I give you one of many concepts I deem meaningful, and you generalise my entire purpose in life as the pursuit of this one concept?Friendly advice: next time, don't dive in the deep end so quickly. You run the risk of making yourself look foolish.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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The flaw in this comparison (religion vs. opiates) is that consumption of opiates almost always lead to a worse outcome, thus it fails to acknowledge the positives that could emerge out of religion. Is this the point you are making?

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Do opiates really always ore nearly always lead to a negative outcome? Most of these problems are associated with poverty, not the effect of the drug.So that was not precisely the point that I was making; the point is that resort to religion, like resort to drugs, can be seen as a "cry for help" to use the pop-psyche cliche. Sometimes people respond to this in real and practically useful ways, sometimes they just sing more hymns as the ship sinks.

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Yet I am suggesting that in reality, some people live more happily (though perhaps NOT more meaningfully) when they can indulge in the "security" that religion provides. I am not saying that it is a "good" way of living life, but if they enjoy it and their behaviours don't bother me, who am I to argue?

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Well, some views might be that my social responsibility extends to my fellow humans leading real and sane lives rather than just shoveling sustenance down their throats till it all goes black. One might also have cogently argued in defence of the happy house slave.

To contracycle:Thank you for your reply.Reply to your post: Well, a casual browse on the net allowed me to rip:"General effects of narcotic analgesics include: sedation, slowed reflexes, raspy speech, sluggish "rubber-like" movements, slowed breathing, cold skin, and possible vomiting. However, as a user continues to abuse narcotic analgesics he or she will build a tolerance to the drug, therefore causing the effects to diminish. Heroin, a very strong narcotic depressant, completely destroys the users ability to reason."from http://www.sayno.com/opiates.html.It is the physical effects (last point in bold) and not the social effects that I am using to draw the parallel between the topic we are discussing (religion inhibiting critical reasoning/thinking) and opiates. Can you please elaborate on this point. I don't follow. Well, here's where you have to be careful. To you, they may be living in an "unreal" or "insane" world created out of their own fantasies, but you have to consider the possibility that you may appear just as unreal and insane to them.The point I'm raising is value. You don't value what they value, and you consider their doctrines unreal and insane. Fine. But what gives you the rights to judge them? Similarly, why shouldn't they judge you?Question: What makes you so sure that you're the "real" and "sane" one here?This is the exact reason why intolerance is not accepted in most civilised societies: conflict can only be minimised if everyone keeps their beliefs, thoughts and actions to themselves if they offend others.Patiently awaiting your reply.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

to hangdawg...I've actually found cannabis as a drug to help with my critical thought in much the same way as kaneh bosm of the old testament, in moderation of course No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.hempbc.com/magazine/mayjune96/kanehbosm.html

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Why would I drill my pastor with this line of questioning unless I was trying to be an ass?

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So, according to you, asking the questions that arise as a result of critical thinking makes you an ass?You just forcefully and clearly proved Yaro's point that religion inhibits free thought.