Too Many Flaws with Evolution

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Originally posted by ringostore:
Personally I think you just don't want to be catagorized with those that you think belong to the word "religion".

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For myself, I confess to holding this bias. The term 'religion' is loaded with spanning millenia. However technically correct it may or may not be, the allusions the word carries don't fit into the world of science.Any train of thought can be traced back to some set of unverifiable assumptions. Logic cannot prove its own premises. Mathematics cannot prove its premises. Empiricism, upon which science is based, assumes that what we see is representative of reality-- what you see is what you get. Religion assumes this (if even this much) and much more-- God, the supernatural, whatever. The only thing that makes sense is to go with the fewest number of assumption.------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ringostore:
oh please....------------------
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Originally posted by gene90:
Seems kind of pointless to me. If the Creator is omnipotent then there is no need to observe. The outcomes would all be known before even beginning.

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That is omniscient, not omnipotent. Nonetheless, if a Creator is omnipotent, there is no need to CREATE. The outcomes would be known before he began.

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Finally if suffering existed without an ultimate justice the Creator would be allowing all sorts of pain needlessly for its own amusement.

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And justice make it OK, when the Creator could have just left out the pain and suffering to start with? [QUOTE][b]Life ends up being like a really big Roman Colosseum where blood is spilt for the amusement of others. Of course, I would expect an Omnipotent Creator, who already knows who would win anyway, would more likely find some much more interesting (and incomprehensible) way to whittle away eternity, unless there were some charity involved (for us).[/QUOTE][/b]Why does charity make a difference?

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That is true, and the just who do not know God are still rewarded in the afterlife, and their assignments are to live amongst others who are equally just and moral.

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Can I get a chapter and verse?

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The doctrine I adhere to is that all these people will be taught after the resurrection, and those that are righteous (or genuinely repentant) will go to the better place, and the remainder of the just who reject the gospel will go to a place much like Earth. The number of people who will fall into that category is enormous.

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Ditto.------------------
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Originally posted by gene90:
I just thought it went without saying that it is rather difficult to be omnipotent without being omniscient. Maybe not necessarily impossible, but difficult.

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But the difference is important, towards the end of your message you state that we DO NOT know the outcome. Hence, god ain't omniscient.

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Suffering is necessary to an extent because it allows wisdom and emotional growth, just as death is necessary to allow procreation and parenthood. The philosophy I adhere to is that life is a proving ground for souls rather than an end to itself. Some people will fall away completely (and reach Hell). Most will do respectably well and be rewarded in kind. A few will reach paradise.

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This is a variation of the 'best of all possible worlds' line of reasoning. Problem is that if your God is omnipotent, then none of these reasons apply. God can do anything he wants, in any way he wants. Wisdom does not have to be linked with pain. God made us so that it does perhaps, but HE COULD HAVE MADE US DIFFERENTLY. Emotional growth doesn't have to be linked with suffering. Death is not necessary for procreation, simply because God did not have to make it that way. But he did... by CHOICE. That is just vicious.

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Charity or responsibility, or a general benevolence is probably the only reason the Creator would keep an interest in us. How much time have you spent feeding anthills?

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Not nearly as much time as I have spent destroying them, by accident or intent.

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What difference does it make to one who does not believe the Bible?

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I am discussing the Bible with you so it makes a difference.

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If you really want a ref see 1 Corinthians 14:40 on different degrees of glory in the resurrection, and if you like it others I can provide.

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I don't get it. I see nothing this reference that touches the subject.------------------
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Originally posted by gene90:
From your own comment: "we DO NOT know the outcome". Now, what does what *we* know or not know have to do with God being omniscient?

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Oh... I see what you mean now. [QUOTE][b]How? -- suggest an alternative that does not compromise free will and that you still have to earn growth-no free lunch.[/QUOTE][/b]It is difficult to imagine, I agree, given that suffering is as common as it is in our world. I'm thinking in terms of games. These forums are an example. I learn. I think. I grow, but don't suffer. I have clawed my way to the top of several hacker-wargame sites driven by love of the game not propelled by suffering.What if suffering is the only way to grow?[/quote][/b]What if it isn't? As I began above, there are other ways to grow. Does this compromise free will? God, in our scenario, create us and our base psychologies. This in itself seems a bit of a compromise of free will--ie we are trapped inside those psychologies. Would a change in those psychologies compromise free will in a fundamentally different way? I think that it wouldn't. For example, take relationships. Remove the emotion of jealousy. We still have the experience of the relationship but not the pain of jealousy.

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Also, don't you think it is important to know how you respond to suffering? To know if you are really valiant or if you just shirk?

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Not if it simply doesn't exist. What point would there be?

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The familial bonds you form in life would be weak and have little meaning.

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I don't agree. Suffering erodes familial bonds more than strengthens it in my experience.

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Knowing the good from the bad, I think you will realize, is an essential component of free will.

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Only in our world-- harmful from not harmful. But isn't free will just choosing among options? No need to tie it to good and bad.

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You've forgotten that our needs are redressed, justice is dealt, and paradise is returned in the end. Suffering is only a temporary thing for the just, and God Himself suffered so that you can have a shot at the happy land.

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But it is all set up that way in the beginning. This make it feel very empty to me-- pointless.

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Another purpose of life, I'm not sure I mentioned is to prepare to meet God, and to become more like God.

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I think this makes the most sense to me of all of your arguments along this vein.

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If God suffers, and we never did, then we could not relate to Him.

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God suffering? Very strange idea to me, though I realize that the idea has had many manifestations. Honestly, I don't know how we could ever relate to God, lifetime of suffering or no.

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Actually we were discussing my religion and personal philosophies (there is a distinction between the two, btw) not the Bible specifically.

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Fair enough. [QUOTE][/b]1 Corinthians 15 KJV, speaking of the Resurrection [b]
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory[/QUOTE][/b]Interesting....------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[b]Interesting point. But is a simulation the real thing? (Philosophical babble now, what is the difference between a perfect sim and the real thing? I venture a guess: the 'perfect sim' doesn't count. It lacks the real-world finality of...um...the real world.[/QUOTE][/b]Sure, as its seen through the filter of this world, but suppose the game was the real world?

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Unless of course it is a game and we don't know it--and that is neither doctrine nor my opinion or philosophy; except that in a sense the righteous will be redressed, just as we can be relaxed after a computer game that didn't go so well.)

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But it can't be dismissed without reason, hence unless there is a reason to discount this option it stands as a option to a world with suffering.

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Unless we are our psychologies.

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Even so, God sets the stage; so every case would be equally effected. [QUOTE][b]Only in our world-- harmful from not harmful. But isn't free will just choosing among options? No need to tie it to good and bad.[/QUOTE][/b][QUOTE][b]But it (Gene90 presumes he means the Eternal Plan) is all set up that way in the beginning. This make it feel very empty to me-- pointless. [quote][b]Maybe you could explain that a little further. The Plan brings me hope.[/QUOTE][/b][/QUOTE][/b]I realize this is something of an atypical point of view, but for what its worth, it works like this. God sets up the planet and puts people on it. All created in minute detail, and presumably God knows the end of it all as well. So we run the obstacle course like rats in a maze. What's the point? Like I said earlier, why even create? God knows the end. He knows who will make it through and who won't. The whole experience seems rather pointless. Why not just create the final product-- heaven and hell-- and be done with it? I know, fairness and justice and all that; but God already knows the end. The end is going to be the same whatever happens. Fairness and justice really don't matter. [/B][/QUOTE]------------------
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Originally posted by gene90:
Some people seem to like running obstacle courses.

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That may be, but the question was about my reaction to the issue.

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What's the point in a universe where souls are made and then sent to Hell for what they would do if they had the chance? No free will.

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Here is the crux of the matter though. If God knows the end and can create Hell populated with souls just as if it had indeed happened, then free will really makes no difference. Struggle and strive all you want the end is the same. Leaving growth and free will in or throwing it out, it doesn't make any difference. This is a serious problem with the conjoining of an omnipotent creator and the concept of free will.

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No, we really need a place like this one.

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Speaking obviously without first hand experience, I prefer this one.------------------
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by gene90:
[b] [QUOTE] (This discussion is winding down, I think I've been over just about everything.) [/b][/QUOTE]I agree. It has been truly enjoyable and quite fascinating. Thank you.Have you ever heard the quote from 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' which run like this: The universe is a figment of its own imagination? There is a branch of Jewish mysticism wherein much the same is true. God creates to know himself.------------------
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