You didn't think the god that truly exists was the one your fantasies dreamed up, did you?
quote:I "trust" God because I don't understand everything like freethinkers think they do.
Strawman. Show me a single freethinker who thinks he understands everything.
Names, dates, places.
Otherwise, you just pulled that claim out of your ass.
quote:It has nothing to do with pascal's wager.
It has everything to do with the Wager: You think you picked the right god. You think you understand god. Given the infinite number of conceptualizations of god that are out there, the chances of you having stumbled upon the right one are not very good.
quote:It's an assumption, and a logical one, that if God exists, he knows better than us and we can trust in him.
Huh? Where's the logic in that? That's wishful thinking. Why does god have to know better than you?
Hint: Being capable of doing Spielbergian special effects is not an indication of being "better than us." It just means he's good with the CGI.
quote:Nothing to do with Pascal. First understand why things are fallacious before making mistakes like that.
Bingo, mike: Pascal made the mistake. You are continuing the fallacy.
Physican, heal thyself!
quote:Trusting in God isn't a fallacy.
What makes you think you've chosen the right one? The problem isn't the trust. The problem isn't god. The problem is that you think your trust is pointed toward the god that truly exists when in all likelihood, you're not even close.
quote:An argument/position of asserting something to be true is a fallacy either formally or informally if found to be unsound.
And yet, here you are claiming to trust in the god that truly exists when you don't have anything other than assertion to back it up.
quote:Stop jumping to conclusion from lack of information.
Hint: That bouncing sensation you're feeling is from your own bipedal exertion.
Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
I don't understand everything like freethinkers think they do.
Come on Mike, you don't really think that is the case do you? The main foundation of my personal disbelief in god is the simple fact that I DON'T know everything. That's why I value evidence based learning; I start out knowing nothing and then, using observation and evidence, move towards knowing (over the course of a lifetime)a pitifully tiny amount about our universe. What I (and you) know may be small, but that doesn't mean that I should attempt to compensate for this by deciding that my wishful thinking is fact. By assuming that there is a god, that you have picked the right one and that you have some idea of his/her/its motives and requirements, I'm afraid you are the one who is claiming knowledge which you do not possess. The only people I can think of who seriously claim to know everything are religious fundamentalists.
As has been touched on by several posters, the Wager is invalid right from the start since it is based on the idea that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, and of course that is impossible.
Pascal's wager: * You live as though God exists. o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite. o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.
* You live as though God does not exist. o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite. o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.
I agree with Phat. Let me also add that IMO pascals wager is a non-thing. It cannot exist according to the bible, and the way I believe God to work in our lives. You cannot just simply "believe in God" and not loose nothing, or gain nothing. There is much to lose, and much to gain, from believing, or more importantly, establishing a relationship with God.
Salvation is not a one time deal, where you say "the sinners prayer" and that's it, you are going to heaven. It is a continuing process, and a decision you make every second, of every day.
Jesus says you must lose your life so you can find it, that does not sound like "nothing to lose to me."
Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
So to answer your question directly, no, Pascal's wager is not an authentic or intellectually honest way to live life, or to preach the gospel. The only way to live and preach life is by love.
I really don’t know what to make of it with regard to an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I went back and reread your message #68 where you made the initial comment that “salvation...is a decision that you make every second of every day”. I just don’t see the applicability of that response to my question. Could you please explain?
“salvation...is a decision that you make every second of every day”. I just don’t see the applicability of that response to my question. Could you please explain?
Ok, I am assuming that we both accept that believing in Jesus is the way to salvation, according to the bible.
I am saying that it is not just a one time decision, but a decision that affects every moment, of every day. So we are making choices.
What all this has to do with the actual ability to choose to believe, or the ability to choose anything in life is, I am not sure. That seems like a separate topic to me.
What does the ability to choose, have to do with the OP?
Pascal gives us these options to choose, but I do not agree with those options, or do I think those options, have anything to do with actually believing in God, or not believing in God. Or does it really have anything to do with going to heaven or hell, IMO. so Pascals wager is a non-thing to me.