Evolution is NOT science: A challenge

I am sick of tired of seeing creationists say 'evolution is religion! Just look at the evidence!' and then showing no evidence!I'll use myself as an example: I am a Christian(although not a good one by some standards). I believe in God. A very powerful one at that. I believe the teachings of Jesus were the greatest philosophical and moral feats the world has or will ever see. I'm pretty sure he was the son of God, too. I THINK or KNOW, not believe, that evolution happened because of the evidence which does NOT contradict anything but a literal interpretation of Genesis. So, how am I an Evolutionist when I'm already a Christian?I challenge anyone who claims that evolution is a belief system/religion to prove this to me as a fellow Theist. Some of you have said that the atheists are biased against the evidence you present; I am not atheist so I will have this alledged barrier lifted and I'll be able to understand every word you say. So please, enlighten me.(PS Atheists such as Crashfrog and Schrafinator, I know you guys will be eager to jump on 'em in here too, but I think the point of this topic would be better presented if you guys stayed out of it just this once. Please, it would help to get the point across. Thanks)This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-08-2004 07:14 PMThis message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-08-2004 07:17 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

No, it doesn't. What's your point? Astronomy, no. Biological science, yes. Absolutely not, I think God had a plan when He set evolution going. But either way, EVOLUTION HAPPENED. And in this case, I'm attributing it to God so I'm not worshipping evolution, am I? Both, but mostly the latter. Ever thought that the Divine Plan might have some branches? I doubt everything happens exactly according to Plan; I'm sure God's fun enough to let some variables be present judging by what I see around me. Absolutely. But hey, I used myself as an example but I'm not just talking about me. I want to know why some say that Evolution is a belief system?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I don't expect much of anything; I'll be the best Christian and person I can be and descriminate no one. From scripture it would look like you can obtain passage to Heaven through faith in Christ, so I guess I'd be okay? But that doesn't matter in this arguement, does it? Please address the arguement; if you want to discuss my beliefs you can email me or open a thread titled "Born2Preach is a Heretic". Thanks.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Esuplex!! I oughta make a virus by that name, if only I didn't suck with computers. Anyway... Ever thought that a God was orchestrating natural selection just enough to allow intelligent life to come into being? Also, if you don't believe evolution is a faith/belief system then why are you here in this thread? If you think it's far-fetched, that's fine because it kind of is. But that doesn't make it a religion, and if you agree with that then I've got no arguement with you. That's fine; if you want to defend that point you can do so in threads debating whether or not evolution happened. I'm not argueing that here, I'm argueing that it's not a religion.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Okay, I see. Thank you for answering the question, now we can get some good discussion in thanks to your response.But is 'guilty by association' a good enough reason to call evolution a belief system? And lots of people believe in God and still think, judging from evidence, that evolution happened. But we don't have to accept that, do we? That's a big IF. Lots of things can be interpreted from evolution; that doesn't make it a religion just because somebody concludes something about the metaphysical from it. Okay, what I meant by what I said about materialism and biology is that you can only use that point of view, and not any other one, to learn anything about biology and make scientific progress. If you want to make philosophical progress about it then a metaphysical one is better in my opinion, though. To summarize: In order to make scientific theories/progress you have to go off evidence and not the Bible, but you can observe it for yourself any way you like.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Okay, then Divine Selection; it doesn't matter to me what you call it.Maybe he did dictate the different parts of the Bible that quote themselves to us, then we screwed 'em up for our own benefit later?
We could also have done the same thing with selection by making things (dodo bird etc)extinct before their time. But this is just speculation, I'm not saying it's 100% fact. The God that you and I believe in wouldn't do that; but lots of people would. I'm sure you've heard about the fossils and all other evidence that just screams out evolution so I'll give that a rest, but why is it such a stretch? Please explain why you think this. You can think that all you want, but that's almost never the case. I personally think, "Wow, look at all this wonder God set in motion in the Beginning..." Please don't blame a theory for what people use it for. You don't blame the gun for the murder, you blame the person who used it. Blaming evolution for secular thinking is like blaming God for the stupid things His followers use His name for like the crusades. That's actually what it is, in a nutshell. Oh, and just maybe one of the most beautifully savage stories to ever be told? And by the way, if what it observes contradicts the Bible that's not evolution's fault or any biologist's fault, scientific essays just repeat what they observe regardless of authority, The Origin Of Species is no exception. To be honest, I think they have balls. Ugh, this had me for a long time but the answer is so clear! We learn early in Christian life that God works in mysterious ways beyond our understanding, so if God's ways don't make sense then that's how it's supposed to be! Once you realize how little sense it makes, you realize God is far more powerful than the Bible ever described! That would be your decision, but how about this? It doesn't have to stop you believing in God, but maybe it would change the way you percieve Him? The truth is the truth and has always been the truth from the start; uncovering new facts about the truth doesn't change the truth, but rather sharpens your(our)flawed sense of the truth.Take that in for a minute, and God bless.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

And that's all well and good, but I strongly suggest you give both sides of an arguement a fighting chance by reading arguements separately before you decide which side is right. Woulda, shoulda, couldda. If, if, if. Sorry, but I hate those arguements. That's not how it is, so it's not relevant to this particular debate. Sorry again for being so blunt, but please consider this. So you disregard it now just because it disagrees with something else? Arach and I have both explained that you can believe in God and the laws that the Bible teaches and still aknowledge that evidence strongly suggests that the earth and universe are much older than 6000 and evolution happened. Someone else already addressed this. By all means, shoot.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Most people do. That ideology that some people come up with about religion because of a scientific theory is poorly construed, and not very popular to my knowledge. Disagree, because I don't believe Creation happened 6000 years ago, and I think evolution happened. And social aspect I don't understand; socially I've found myself hanging out with mostly non-Christians in real life. Because atheists are silly people Everything's a legitimate religious discipline, but legitimate doesn't always mean right. How so? Look, I'm not saying that science knows everything; and such a spectacular beginning could've been sheer miracles. But it doesn't really comply with modern science. I do have theories of my own that would make the Garden of Eden idea work, though.Still, please explain how genesis account of creation is consistent with modern science, in your own words.I realize you said this: Okay, what? I'm sorry, but I don't see what plants have to do with the genesis account. There probably is, it's just that it doesn't seem to hint literal Judeo-Christian creation. If you feel it does, please explain. Hold on! I agree that there are SOME people who (mis)use evolutionary theory to come up with ideology, but the vast majority of scientists who study evolution are not the culprit. Yeah, it's just knowledge. So why make a big deal about it and have an entire creationist campagn against it? The scientists who study it mostly don't think much of it, but creationists sure seem to make quite a fuss.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Schraf, we all know that Creationists cower in your wake when you stride across the proverbial battlefield on your proverbial white horse with your big, scary, flaming, proverbial sword. Okay?Please read the original post; I specifically mentioned you because I've seen what you do and its brutal effectiveness in the anti-creation science department. This thread is for theists only in order to prove a point to the creationists, please see the original post for details.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Hang, while Schraf's "Bow down to me and beg for mercy" attitude can be sort of annoying, she knows pretty well what she's talking about in this particular case because of all the experience she has debating with creationists. I'm sorry, this is just silly. Some galaxies are spiral and some are not; in either case it just has to do with the gravitational pull etc. From what can I remember from A Brief History of Time, a Spiral in particular could possibly have a black hole as a centerpiece.This and others were already explained by secular science long before creationists came up with it; do the research using historical texts on scientific discoveries(check your local library) yourself if you don't believe me.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Okay, fine. In that case, that's just no points for either of us on that subject. Next: Okay, fine. But that would also mean that 15 billion years divided by 6(I'm no math expert, somebody else please do it!) would be EXACTLY how long God sees one day, because we're assuming Genesis is referring to God's day? I dunno, that's actually not a bad claim at surface value, but then one must wonder because time is relative ALL THE TIME, so really it could also be 25 billion years and 2 seconds, not 6 days. He would've been cooler if his first name was Waylon. Uh, anyway... since when have there been requirements to be identified as anything in that respect? Creationist isn't exactly a government-sanctioned profession, so is that really something you can be 'identified'? (had to get off, the following was put in by edit)Well, because I think evolution happened. Honestly, there really wouldn't be any other reasons, would there? Unless you're accusing me of being in on this alledged 'Evilutionist Conspiracy'(TM), why else would I agree with someone's idea other than because I agree with it?This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 07-15-2004 06:03 PM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

I'm sorry, but no, it doesn't only translate into 6 days at the start of everything. You've said so yourself that time is relative, therefore we agree it could be ANY length of time. Okay, fine; I'm open to anything being possible so I won't rule it out as a POSSIBILITY but I'll keep in mind it's PROBABLY not exact. But I'd like to see some sources if you ever find them. Because I believe God orchestrated creation the way that science describes, which isn't too far off from a liberal interpretation of the texts. The amino acids that made proteins needed for single-celled life probably came from the earth/ancient atmosphere, and according to Genesis Adam was made from the 'dust of the earth'. Sounds like a poetic way of putting 'abiogenesis' if you ask me. Yeah, I think God's got his act together.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

Okay, then you don't have to. You're right, God's outside of time. So does it really matter how long it took according to OUR standard of (the notoriously relative)time? Maybe it WOULD seem like 6 days for God but not us; so why do people try to prove creation/big bang/whatever took 6 of OUR days to go about? No need to even bother to try and prove it in that case; not that you can because we can see that it took much longer by our standards. You may hold on to belief on faith as you like; you could very well be right in that respect despite what modern science says and that's not what I'm attacking in this thread. It's when people try to say that modern science agrees with their belief that they are incorrect. I realize modern science may one day be obsolete, but until this unlikely day comes please acknowledge other opinions even if they don't agree with yours.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

How does he figure each day lasted half of what it did last time? Sounds like somebody's clock is a little off. Agreed. I just said that there are some possible similarities if you don't take the Biblical creation account so literally. The Seven-Headed-Dragon of Revalations is not taken literally even though Revelations had the same literal tone that Genesis had; why must one be taken literally and not the other? I didn't just imply it, I straight out said it. The literal Biblical creation account is an unlikely one, the scientific account(I say scientific and not evolutionist because the ToE doesn't deal with the origin of life on this earth) fits the evidence. That doesn't mean that God didn't orchestrate all of it. From what I've seen so far, and if you disagree I welcome you to try and convince me otherwise, the distinction between creationism and the ToE is that the latter IS science and the formor is not.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

But that's not how actual science works.