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Author Topic:   Evolution is NOT science: A challenge
chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 591 (123376)
07-09-2004 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 12:54 AM


quote:
If you put an immortal monkey in a room with a typewriter and check back in a few billion years he will NOT have written the Bible.
This argument, along with others of this type, i.e., tornado in a junkyard (assembling a 747), shaking a watch in a box (assembling it from parts), etc., are meaningless.
The Bible, jetliners and watches are products of deliberate processes, not chance occurrences. To suggest otherwise is misleading. Monkeys cannot read nor write, much less type. Tornadoes are destructive forces; they cannot construct anything. Watches are assembled piece by piece using tools, not by shaking the parts in a box. Statistical probability does not deal with impossibilities. If you're trying to say evolution is an impossibility, then you should just say so. Making a statement which may appear astute to the uninformed, but in actuality is mathematically meaningless, is deceitful.
Reduced to their literal meaning, these statements simply reveal the truth that the results of certain pre-conceived, deliberate actions cannot be arrived at by chance. As it pertains to evolution, using this type of argument is stating that life is the result of some deliberate action (god). Of course this requires a belief in god, and the ToE does not address that subject.
This message has been edited by chicowboy, 07-09-2004 02:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 12:54 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 3:49 PM chicowboy has replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 591 (123404)
07-09-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 3:43 PM


And I also believe that evolution tends to remove God from the minds of people (not all) when they view his creation. And I think evolution is a cornerstone of humanism hedonism atheism and other anti-God systems of thinking.
Evolution says nothing about the non/existence of god. Like all other scientific fields, it is neutral on and separate from religion. Evolution and "anti-God systems of thinking" are not dependent on one another. The reason many feel the way you do is because they have been told to think in this manner. If Pat Robertson decided to preach that evolution was consistent with Christian belief, many would accept that as fact.
If the Bible can't even get the creation right, what good is it beyond a moral code?
If Genesis is viewed as allegory, then there is nothing to get right.
Regarding god's hand, the Deists of the Enlightenment held that god put everything in motion, then allowed nature to run its course. They would see no contradiction between evolution and a belief in god.
The fact is, there are many belief systems, gods, and religions worldwide, so it is not simply evolution which opposes Christian thinking and Biblical "authority."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 3:43 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 6:08 PM chicowboy has not replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 591 (123406)
07-09-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 3:49 PM


Isn't there a number, I believe 10^46 or something somewhere around there where if the probability is smaller than 1 in 10^46 it is generally considered an impossibility for all practical purposes?
I'll take your word for it. (I have NO desire to look it up!)
Two things:
1) Assigning probability, no matter how small, to a mathematically impossible outcome is an error at best, a lie at worst.
2) How can one define "practical purposes" in the context of the cosmos? To me, any attempt to do so is also meaningless. Perhaps with future discoveries this will not be the case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 3:49 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 6:18 PM chicowboy has not replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 591 (123417)
07-09-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
07-09-2004 4:48 PM


If we are to equate evolution with religion, then we must also view trial by jury as a religious rite.

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 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-09-2004 4:48 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by chicowboy, posted 07-09-2004 5:07 PM chicowboy has not replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 591 (123423)
07-09-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by chicowboy
07-09-2004 4:53 PM


Just another thought.
It's ironic to me that anti-evolutionists propose we show them a fully functional 747 assembled by a tornado as proof of the possibility of evolution. In fact, if such a thing ever happened, it would most definitely suggest the existence of god - not the other way around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by chicowboy, posted 07-09-2004 4:53 PM chicowboy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 7:02 PM chicowboy has replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 591 (123466)
07-09-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 7:02 PM


That is not why I feel this way.
I wasn't claiming you did. When it comes to religion, though, many people believe everything they're told without a second thought. I know this from personal experience.
Yes, but the question is, where does the natural end and the supernatural begin?
From what I've read of the Deists, of whom many of our Founding Fathers were, they believe in a devine creation and nothing more. It's as simple as that. One quote I remember, which I can paraphrase here goes something like this, "The evidence of the Creator is the creation." This in no way means the Deists of the day were referring to the Christian God.
Yes it would suggest the existence of God. That is the point. It is as likely that a 747 would be assembled by a tornado as a person by evolution.
You're missing the point I'm trying to make. Yes, to witness a tornado surging through a junkyard and leaving a fully functional jetliner in its wake would require devine intervention, or a talented illusionist. It's the equivalent of saying, explicitly, that evolution/life requires devine intervention. It's not a proof; it's not even an argument. It's simply a belief. Using fantastical rhetoric, as this and other so-called mathematical proofs use, is nothing more than an attempt to confuse the ignorant. I despise such charletans who seek to mislead in an attempt to bolster a faith which should be able to stand on its own. Why don't these deceivers say, "The odds of evolution are the same as throwing a standard six-sided die and coming up seven?" Because everyone realizes you cannot throw a seven with a six-sided die. Why don't they say, "...the same as a 70 year old man giving birth to twins?" Because everyone knows men don't give birth. Nobody would accept such ridiculous claims as valid arguments. They are, however, no different than monkeys typing, or watches a shuffling.
You're free to believe and reject anything you want. When you suggest an impossibility as somehow mathematically/scientifically relevant, however, you come off as either ignorant or dishonest.
And though the simplest life is several orders more complex than a 747 people believe we are the products of raw energy and random chance. This defies reason and logic.
It depends on how you define complex. It depends on how you define random. Many things are products of raw energy and random chance. Your tornado, for example. You choose your definitions, and then draw the line between randomness and devine intervention. This line apparently is drawn between living and non-living entities, in your mind. That's fine, but there is no scientific nor mathematical basis for such thinking. It is faith. That's fine, too, but it shouldn't be represented as anything other than faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 7:02 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 9:17 PM chicowboy has replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 591 (123485)
07-09-2004 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by mike the wiz
07-09-2004 9:17 PM


Not really. Obviously Hangdawg feels it takes a belief/faith in abiogenesis of life on earth, because of the complexity thereof, and the improbability of the event. How's that dishonest when it's the truth?
I'm not saying his belief is dishonest. Claiming evolution/abiogenesis (two different subjects) can be disproven by comparing it to a mathematical impossibility is either disingenuous or ignorant. Setting up analogies with such ridiculous assumptions as monkeys using typewriters is insulting to anyone with intelligence. The less fortunate among us, I can assume, have visions of a rhesus poking away at the keys and accept this nonsense as legitimate. If someone has a mathematical proof that successfully refutes evolution, I have yet to see it. I doubt it is possible.
Because there isn't evidence for abiogenesis.
...is not proof of the existence of god.
And if you say "we are evidence" then please allow me the same privelige of saying that concerning a creator.
I accept that as your belief. This is the belief held by Deists whom I spoke of. You need not go into a hodge-podge of meaningless rhetoric to make this statement.
So basically - chance would be a fine thing, but it is unlikely and also speculative.
I repeat, how can we define chance in the context of the cosmos? What we consider "astronomical" (pun intended) may in fact be quite likely. How can we say for sure that life is a rare occurrence? The formation of life may well be as likely as the formation of rain clouds.
This message has been edited by chicowboy, 07-09-2004 09:15 PM
This message has been edited by chicowboy, 07-09-2004 09:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 9:17 PM mike the wiz has not replied

chicowboy
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 591 (123498)
07-09-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by arachnophilia
07-09-2004 10:33 PM


here's a question. supposing god got things started, and created single-celled life.
how does that say anything about evolution, exactly?
Of course, it doesn't. It's also entirely possible that god got things started with the big bang, and life was a necessary result of that event. I see no contradiction between theism and natural science. Then again, the Bible is not a prerequisite to a belief in god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2004 10:33 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by arachnophilia, posted 07-09-2004 10:56 PM chicowboy has not replied

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