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Author Topic:   Is God Omnipresent?
Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 10 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 61 of 86 (294712)
03-12-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
How old are you? You come across like you're, say, 12.

Edited to correct a typo.

This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 13-Mar-2006 02:36 AM


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 86 (294714)
03-12-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:35 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How old are you?

57.


This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 86 (294717)
03-12-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:35 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
I would prefer to be 30 however.
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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 10 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 64 of 86 (294718)
03-12-2006 9:43 PM


A REPEAT of the OP:
Things are quickly becoming confused and degenerating. Let me again repeat the relevant statement from the OP:

[qs]But if God is omnipresent He must always be present even if the "evil" thing is around. And, if God is everywhere there is no place where He is not present, and so, how can He be absent when evil is present?[/quote]

I will repeat my reply to this:

A number of solutions to this dilemma:

(1) There is no God, and so the dilemma doesn't present itself.

(2) God exists but is not omnipresent.

(3) God exists and is omnipresent, but evil is not the absense of God but something else entirely (and may even be an abstract concept that is independent of God, her existence, or her presence).

(I will also add another possibility in (3) is that God may not be "good" and so God and evil can quite easily coexist.)


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 86 (294724)
03-12-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:35 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
You come across like you're, say, 12

Are you on drugs?

(This is comparable to your cheap rhetorical ploy of accusing me of extreme youth.)


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Chiroptera
Member (Idle past 10 days)
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 66 of 86 (294732)
03-12-2006 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 10:07 PM


Thanks, robin. In the preceding message I'm trying to get a fresh start on the topic to see if we can make any progress on it. Would you like to start?


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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R. Cuaresma
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 86 (294809)
03-13-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
03-12-2006 10:13 AM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
Definitely it is not what I am saying and I would never ever say that "God is evil."
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2185 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 68 of 86 (294985)
03-13-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 8:25 PM


Re: The argument
He doesn't have to be. I'm telling you what He has to be if He exists.

You say he has to be perfect but give no reason why he has to be, it sounds like you are trying to say the only version of god thier can be can be the fundi version of god. are you sure you arn't a closet fundi robin?
i am saying god doesn't have to be morally good to be god. we only view god that way because he is god, have you ever heard of any religion that says such things as "I like our god he's a total dick!"?

god can be anything he likes, he can smite people for no reason, but will people consider that good? some will because they want to think so


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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 86 (295004)
03-13-2006 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by R. Cuaresma
03-13-2006 7:00 AM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
But it seems that IS what you are saying? If not, can you please explain how you can say:

Omnipresent is one of the attributes of God aside from being "Omnipotent" and "Omniscient." Because we believe that God is the creator of everything He must have the attribute of always being there in all places at the same time. But this attribute must be limited to following:
1. God is present in both past and present times.
2. God is present in both the spiritual and material world.

If GOD is everywhere, in past and present, in spiritual and material, and evil exists, then evil is in GOD, GOD is evil.

Either GOD is evil or GOD is not OmniPresent it seems. If that is not the case, then perhaps you can explain.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 86 (295005)
03-13-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-13-2006 7:00 PM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
If GOD is everywhere, in past and present, in spiritual and material, and evil exists, then evil is in GOD, GOD is evil.

To be "present," Jar, is not the same thing as being the thing you are present at. I might be present at a theater, but that doesn't mean I am the theater. God might be present at an evil event but that doesn't mean he is the evil event.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 71 of 86 (295009)
03-13-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by robinrohan
03-13-2006 7:05 PM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
Thats a good example, Robin. Of course, we believe that God is present everywhere in that He is aware of what is going on in all places. His awareness is everywhere. Thus, He knows when "evil" is happening without actually synergizing His Spirit with the evil actions themselves.

Of course, we are discussing issues of faith, here. Not everyone believes the same things, nor sees it the same way. Much of what we believe we were simply taught---without pondering the implications.

I was always taught that the "other spirits" could not be aware of what was happening in all places at once. They could somehow communicate with each other through conduits such as gossip and the media...(Im sticking with my original premise that humans are a necessary conduit of evil)

Its not that the demons use us. We use them. God observes all of it---every bit of our behavior---and I believe that He wants us to realize that He is there and that He cares about our behavior.

Unlike the other spirits, however, God does not need humans nor words of the media(medium) as a conduit....that is the difference between the Holy Spirit and the wannabes.


Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 72 of 86 (295013)
03-13-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
03-13-2006 7:00 PM


Re: what does OmniPresent mean
jar writes:

If GOD is everywhere, in past and present, in spiritual and material, and evil exists, then evil is in GOD, GOD is evil.

IMHO, this is what the Bible means when it urges us to be In Christ. As humans, there are many moments of any given day that we are not In Christ. He is (with) us, however...IMB. Whenever *evil* exists, it is because the perpetrators of the evil are In *evil* at that moment....they are choosing to allow the virus to consume them.

Some examples:

  • Ego and anger that we occasionally have for each other, based on jealousy, pride, lust, etc....

  • Fanaticism of many varieties...(including religious fanaticism)

  • Idolatry---willfully choosing something other than the Holy Spirit to be the focus of attention, passion, and focus.

    In each of these cases, I believe that God is with us at that moment...however because we at that moment are willfully choosing to not be In Christ, He respectfully declines to be In us. (yet by being with us, He never leaves nor forsakes us even as we forsake and ignore Him.) Am I clearing anything up or am I confusing the topic all the more? :eek:

    This message has been edited by Phat, 03-13-2006 05:43 PM


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  • Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 4623 days)
    Posts: 708
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 73 of 86 (296558)
    03-19-2006 1:57 AM


    No. He's nt -- IMO
    I'll note that the concept that God is omni-anything is suspiciously missing from traditional Christian theologies prior to Keirkegard. Following this, Kant seems to start with teh assumption that God can do the logically impossible -- which is also missing from traditional Christian theologies.

    So, for example, is one asks, "Can God sin?" The answer, in traditional Christian theologies, is no. Therefore, God is not omnipotent.

    For another example, is one asks, "Can God be reside forever within hell?" The answer, in traditional Christian theologies, is no. Therefore, God is not omnipresent.

    Similarly, is one asks, "Can God know what is happening in hell after all has been restored?" The answer, in traditional Christian theologies, is no. Therefore, God is not omniscient.

    Many people seem to get tripped up on these kinds of questions. But I'll note that these questions do not pertain to how many percieve the Christian God. People can make comparisons if they like, but, if they're seriously considering the traditional idea of the Christian God, they need to realize that these questions have already been answered.

    Omnipresent? no. Most present? yes.
    Omnipotent? no. Most potent? yes.
    Omniscient? no. Most prescient? yes.

    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-19-2006 02:00 AM


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    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2185 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 74 of 86 (296560)
    03-19-2006 2:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    03-19-2006 1:57 AM


    Re: No. He's nt -- IMO
    I agree with all of this, i am starting to develope the view that, since god is god, we say things like he is omnipotent, etc because god is more powerful than us.
    We do not know if he can do the imposible or just the things we can't do, maybe he has the power to stop objects in motion but he can't stop time or be subject to things that people would think conflict with thier religion, such as doing evil, which IMO does limit god.

    god in the traditional religions make him none of the things people say it is


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    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 4623 days)
    Posts: 708
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 75 of 86 (296594)
    03-19-2006 12:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by ReverendDG
    03-19-2006 2:13 AM


    Re: No. He's not -- IMO
    ReverendDG writes:

    I agree with all of this, i am starting to develope the view that, since god is god, we say things like he is omnipotent, etc because god is more powerful than us.

    We do not know if he can do the imposible or just the things we can't do, maybe he has the power to stop objects in motion but he can't stop time or be subject to things that people would think conflict with thier religion, such as doing evil, which IMO does limit god.

    god in the traditional religions make him none of the things people say it is

    Thanks for the feedback ReverendDG. :)

    I guess I'll just add three additional qualifiers of where I do believe God is in some way omni...they seem to be centrally focused around his will.

    I think that God's will, in the traditional Christian sense, is omnibenevolent -- that is, everything he does is out of goodness and whatever happens to humanity will involve the least amount of evil possible.

    I also think that God's will, in the traditional Christian sense, is omnidirectional -- that is, all things work according to his greater purpose even when others chose not to follow his will.

    In addition to this, I think God's will, in the traditional Christian sense, is omnisentient -- that is, his will has always been around since eternity past and his will will always exists into infinite future.

    In other words, I think God is his own self-contained reality and he is dependant on nothing else to sustain his being. But, just to be clear in comparing the contrasts between various thoughts of God, I would sum up my own thoughts as follows...

    Omniscient? no. Omnibenevolent? yes.

    Omnipresent? no. Omnisentient? yes.

    Omnipotent? no. Omnidirectional? yes.

    The differences might be nearly subliminal, but I think it makes a big difference in how one perceives God.

    This is all in my own opinion. :)


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