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Author
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Topic: The Tree of Life as God's Life
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 16 of 292 (267269)
12-09-2005 4:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by jaywill
12-09-2005 1:07 AM
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Your reference should be Genesis 2:9, not 1:9. Any particular reason why you're touting the Recovery version?
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 1:07 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 4:36 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 18 of 292 (267272)
12-09-2005 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by jaywill
12-09-2005 4:36 PM
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jaywill writes: The footnotes and study notes are tremendous. I'm always wary of "footnotes" and "study notes". I prefer to draw my own conclusions, even if it takes a little longer.
... the big overall picture of God's eternal purpose. Too bad Cecil B. DeMille is no longer with us.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 4:36 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 5:05 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 21 of 292 (267276)
12-09-2005 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by jaywill
12-09-2005 5:05 PM
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Re:
jaywill writes: Yet you essentially include your study notes here in these discussions for others to use as aids in forming a conclusion. If people use my posts to make their own conclusions, I can't help that. But I'm not selling them.
Since we run out of space on these discussions, maybe we could save space for the topic. Shoot, about the Tree of Life as God's Life. Not much interested in that. The whole Adam-created-immortal thing is pretty much of a non-starter. I'm more of a "small picture" kind of guy - a pragmatist, as it were. If you can spare the time from your "eternal purpose", you might want to take a look at this thread, for a more down-to-earth approach.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 5:05 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 7:21 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 25 of 292 (267316)
12-09-2005 7:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by jaywill
12-09-2005 6:47 PM
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Re: Purpledawn Objects - and so do I
jaywill writes: The eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (by way of contrast) caused man to be infested with the Satanic spirit. Since when is the knowledge of good and evil a bad (Satanic) thing?
You haven't shown where my logic about Genesis 3:22-24 should not indicate that God would not have man mixed with two elements - the Satanic and the Divine. It's your topic. It's pretty much up to you to show that God has "mixed man with two elements...." You could start by pointing out where Satan is even mentioned in the Adam and Eve story.
to purpledawn, Jaywill writes: I think I'll ignore your additional comments and use my time to dialogue with some others with more interest in the study. Maybe you and Tal and randman can form an intellectual triumvirate.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 6:47 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 27 of 292 (267322)
12-09-2005 7:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by jaywill
12-09-2005 7:21 PM
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Re: Don't want your money
jaywill writes: Stop posting accusations like I want something from you. I never accused you of anything. Don't read things into my posts like you do into the Bible. I only mean what I say. Throttle back a notch or two if you want to last around here.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 7:21 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 32 of 292 (267384)
12-09-2005 11:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by jaywill
12-09-2005 11:18 PM
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Professor Ringo presents... Debating 101
jaywill writes: The ancient serpent? Which ancient serpent? The one in Genesis chapter three. But you haven't done anything to actually link them. It's just an empty assertion.
Once a lie gets circulating it is hard to dispel it. You've done nothing to even try to dispell the "lie".
The serpent is identified with Satan Ringo. Then show that. Empty assertions count for nothing.
I pity such people. I don't need your pity. I get that from www.pityforums.com.  This is a debate forum. We try to back up the points we make. How about losing the attitude and actually trying to make an effort? The questions still stand:
- Since when is the knowledge of good and evil a bad (Satanic) thing?
- Where is Satan even mentioned in the Adam and Eve story?
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 11:18 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 35 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 11:54 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 34 of 292 (267387)
12-09-2005 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 31 by jaywill
12-09-2005 11:38 PM
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Re: The Satanification of Man
jaywill writes: Once Adam has eaten of the tree which injected death into him.... Unsubstantiated premise.
... the tree of death.... It has not been demonstarted that there was a "tree of death" in the Garden.
I am welcomed to see a problem in this logic from someone. That's one problem. I won't bother looking for more.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 31 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 11:38 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 37 of 292 (267391)
12-10-2005 12:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 35 by jaywill
12-09-2005 11:54 PM
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Re: Professor Ringo presents... Debating 101
jaywill writes: What ancient serpent do you think Revelation 12 is refering to? **shrug** Could be any ancient serpent. It doesn't automatically default to the one you want it to be.
And the vision of Revelation 12 of a Dragon standing before a Woman who is about to bear a manchild. That doesn't remind you of "And I will put enmity between you and the woman. And between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Gen. 3:15) So, Eve was the only woman in history who was about to bear a manchild? (By the way, how did they know it was going to be a manchild? Are sonograms older than I thought?)
The ancient serpent (now grown into a huge dragon).... Why would a serpent grow into a dragon? Was it just a baby serpent in Eden? And have serpents been observed to grow into dragons before?
The connection is clear to me. That's not the point here. You have to make it clear to us.
The ancient serpent is the Devil and Satan who deceives the whole inhabited earth. Still unsubstantiated - both the connection between the serpent and the dragon and the connection between the serpent and Satan.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by jaywill, posted 12-09-2005 11:54 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 38 of 292 (267392)
12-10-2005 12:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by jaywill
12-10-2005 12:01 AM
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Re: Professor Ringo presents... Debating 101
jaywill writes: You don't see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as a tree of death? In the day that he eats of it what will happen? "... for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die" You're making the assumption that Adam was created immortal. I am not. I take Genesis as written: Adam was created - no reason to think he was immortal. He would have died anyway, some day. He was told that he would die the same day if he ate of the tree - i.e. instant death as opposed to a natural death. But he didn't die "the same day". He died many years later of natural causes. The only mystery here is why was he misled into thinking he would die the same day.
After 6,000 some years, get a clue Ringo. Do I really look that old? Must be the hat.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2005 12:01 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2005 12:41 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 42 of 292 (267402)
12-10-2005 12:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 40 by jaywill
12-10-2005 12:41 AM
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Re: Professor Ringo presents... Debating 101
jaywill writes: I think that God would have maintained him to live on. Perhaps I cannot prove it. Even perhaps I am wrong. But that is how I feel today. That's better. State it as an opinion if you can't back it up. 
If there was something else which would be a cause of him to die I think that there would have been a warning that that should be avoided. None of us is given such a warning. We know we are going to die some day. Why would Adam be any different?
It is certain that there was no warning that failure to eat of the tree of life would cause him to die. Strictly speaking, no warning is recorded in the Bible. Nor is it recorded whether or not they ate of the Tree of Life.
ke Genesis as written: Adam was created - no reason to think he was immortal. He would have died anyway, some day. Where "as written" in Genesis would you gather this thought from. What is written that leads you to believe this? "As written", Adam was a man. Men die. You have to do your own editing to reach any other conclusion.
You may believe it. But what is "written" that leads you to believe it? Sometimes, what is not written is significant too. Since the Bible doesn't say that Adam wore a plaid shirt, I don't assume that he did.
We are very, very old. I notice you mentioned 6000 years. Do you believe the earth is that young? If so, I can direct you to some of the scientific threads.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2005 12:41 AM | | jaywill has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 45 of 292 (267407)
12-10-2005 1:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 44 by jaywill
12-10-2005 1:05 AM
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jaywill writes: I started a discussion on the Theological Defense of the "Gap Theory" but I haven't had much time to write yet. For what it's worth, I'd advise you not to write too much. Keep the sermons much, much shorter and address the responses that other people make.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2005 1:05 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 47 of 292 (267413)
12-10-2005 1:28 AM
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Reply to: Message 46 by jaywill
12-10-2005 1:15 AM
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jarwill writes: From post # 1 of this discussion I said that I was persuaded of certain things. This kind of admission is similar to saying that I have an opinion. And you have also been very insulting about my opinions. Instead of telling me to "get a clue", how about giving me one?
Plenty has been backed up which you have not even tried to rebut. And plenty has been rebutted which you have not even tried to back up. It is not up to me to rebut every single solitary detail of your very long presentation. If I rebut even one premise, your logic is gone.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2005 1:15 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Witness Lee
Hi purpledawn, I had a pastor once who was a fan of Watchman Nee, but I've never looked much into what he or Witness Lee had to say. I have no problem with drawing parallels between different passages about trees, etc. but of course that doesn't mean that every tree mentioned in the Bible is the "Tree of Life". While I agree with jaywill that the books of the Bible are interconnected, I do not agree that the Bible is monolithic. Different authors can be talking about different trees. Which is why I've been trying to get him to think a little harder about the connections that he thinks are so obvious. Pre-digested ideas from commentaries may make complex theories easier to swallow (excuse the ugly metaphor) but sometimes the real answer is simple.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 12-10-2005 5:35 AM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 67 of 292 (267937)
12-11-2005 10:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by jaywill
12-11-2005 10:19 PM
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jaywill writes: So here we have jar's opinion. God created Adam and Eve and they were going to die. God warned them that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die. But they were really going to die anyway. My opinion too, and so far you have said nothing to change it. I don't know if you went off on this tangent about orthodoxy deliberately to avoid the issue, but avoid the issue you have.
But there's the tree of life. They had to keep eating of it to live forever. Where does the Bible even hint that they ate of the Tree of Life? And I am still waiting for an a response to a lot of other questions upstream.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by jaywill, posted 12-11-2005 10:19 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 69 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2005 6:20 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 73 of 292 (268102)
12-12-2005 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
12-12-2005 6:20 AM
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jaywill writes: The paragraph that you quote above was my summarizing of jar's positions which I question. I'm not sure that that is jar's position, but I'll leave it to him to clarify if he so chooses. When you said:
But they were really going to die anyway. Okay. Maybe. But there's the tree of life. They had to keep eating of it to live forever. I took the two "buts" as a double reversal of direction - i.e. a 360. If that is not your position, so much the better. Don't be so quick to assume that I'm not paying attention. Try expressing yourself more clearly. So, how about answering some of the other issues? You seem to be avoiding any discussion by answering your own posts and leap-frogging over anything you can't answer.
People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 69 by jaywill, posted 12-12-2005 6:20 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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