Hi EMA,
EMA writes:
then chooses a devil to be one on his fold. Isnt this alot like Purpledawn saying that Pharoah didnt have a choice all of it was orchestrated by God for his purposes. Where is freedom of choice.
If Jesus was in the beginning with God and Jesus is God then He has all knowledge. That means He sat at the beginning and viewed the end. Therefore He knows the outcome before the first man was formed from the dust of the ground.
If He knows every decision I will ever make does that take away my free will. No
I had an Aunt that was a preacher back in the 50's she always said, "whatever is to be will be even if it never happens". She preached if a person was to be saved they would be no matter what. I told her God knew she would be that stupid and not trust Him for salvation and die and go to hell.
Now concerning Judas, did Jesus know he was a devil from the beginning? Yes that is why He chose him.
Concerning Peter, did Jesus tell him or anyone else that Peter was a devil? NO
Satan is the tempter and Jesus did tell Satan to get behind Him. Peter was allowing Satan to speak through him like the serpent in the garden, although the poor serpent had no choice. Peter did.
EMA writes:
If Judas was literally a devil or the devil then we must conclude that Peter was as well. If not, why not?
Didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees they were of their father the devil.
Well according to Jesus Judas was of his father the devil. That makes him a devil.
Peter was of his Father, God thus Peter was a saint.
EMA writes:
And finally, Devils dont repent or feel guilty about anything, unless you can show me a passage that suggests they do
According to Luke 22:3 Satan entered Judas and he went and conspired with the chief priest to betray Jesus. After he had done Satans bidding Satan left him to himself.
EMA writes:
Judas was not a Jew, a chosen child of God, before the new Covenant? How do you justify this statement. How was Judas not a child of God anymore than Moses, Mary, Daniel, or anyother Old Testament Jew.
God's chosen people does not equal a chosen child of God.
How do we justify Jesus telling the most religious people of His day they were of their father the devil?
EMA writes:
Yes and no, but It is not necessary to quibble this point with semantics.
What semantics.
Judas was one of the original 12 Apostles Jesus sat in the Church. Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle. Paul said God sat them in the Church.
I kinda think that made him a member of the church.
The Church being a called out assembly, to be fishers of men.
He carried the money bag so I think that makes him the treasurer.
EMA writes:
I will only cite a few since both you and I are familiar with most of them.
In John 3:5, "Jesus said you must be born again of water and the spirit". It doesnt say anything about belief here,
It doesn't say anything about baptism either.
What does Jesus say?
John writes:
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Does your Bible have verse 6 in it? You do know the Bible is it's own best interpreter don't you?
Nicodemus understood what Jesus meant. He provided the spices for the body of Jesus.
There are two kinds of birth.
A water birth which is a fleshly birth. Apparently you never had kids and heard the dreaded news in the middle of the night "my water has just broke".
There is a spiritual birth man's spirit is born of the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of redemption.
EMA writes:
The easiest is in Acts chapter 2. Peter had preached the good news of jesus, his Jewish brethern said,
Now that we believe , "What must we do to be saved" Peter didnt say that all fellas, your good to go. he
You stretching what they said a little aren't you?
They actually said: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
So lets see they heard the gospel, they believed John 3:18 says they are condemned no longer.
They then asked what they should do. Peter says you need to repent and be baptized with reference to the remission of your sins. The Greek language and construction does not support in order to receive remission of sins.
EMA writes:
I love these verses they are the most important even spoken,. but they are not all that one needs to do to
The verses you are refering to supplies everything you need to become a born again child of God.
They do not obtain everything you need to be a born again obedient child of God.
Jesus sat the example and said come follow me.
He was the Son of God.
He went to John the Baptist who had authority to baptize and was baptized by him in the river Jordan.
So if we are going to follow Jesus we have to be a child of God first.
Then we need to present ourselves to the one who has the authority to baptize. That order was given to the Church prior to Pentecost. The Church is to make disciples (believers) then baptize them, then teach them the all things that He commanded.
That is God's order any other order is out of order.
But whoa. That is just the beginning.
Jesus tells us in John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
There is no option in that statement. If we are His sheep we will follow Him.
If someone claims to be a sheep and goes about butting with his own head he is nothing but a goat.
EMA writes:
If Abraham had never obeyed Gods wishes or commands, do you think it could be said he believed God.
If we did not have his works to look at we could not know whether he did or did not believe God.
That is the reason James said:
quote:
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
God knows if a man has faith whether he has works or not. But man can only know you have faith when he sees your works.
We are justified before God by faith. We are justified before man by works.
There will be no flesh justified before God by works.
The best part of that is God will reward us for the works we do.
EMA writes:
Baptism is simply the method of obedience he has established to brign us into contact with the blood of
Baptism is an ordinance given to the Church. The Church is to baptize believers, disciples, followers.
Baptism is the announcement of our new beginning in a lifelong journey of serving Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master.
Just as the personal ministry of Jesus was announced and begun at his Baptism.
EMA writes:
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Given Acts 2:38, there is no
reason to percieve this as figurative
So a statement Paul made:
Paul writes:
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
We are His children by faith.
Those who have been baptized with reference to Christ have put on the righteousness of Christ.
God is no respector of persons or sex.
EMA writes:
I agree 100%, but can that Son do something to be put in prison forever, so while still his fathers son, be separated by prison forever
An earthly father and son yes.
If man gains eternal life through works he can lose it by stopping work.
God has a gift He has offered to mankind. It is a free full pardon and sets mankind free from the bondage the first man sold man into when he disobeyed God. It also cover any personal sin we have ever committed or will commit. That is what grace is. Unmerited favor.
I don't deserve eternal life but God made a way I could have eternal life. I can't buy it. I can't earn it. I can't steal it. I can only receive it.
But when I got it my life changed. My want to changed.
I have seen too many people walk the aisle, get dunked in a pool of water and never see any change.
When a person becomes a sheep, he is a sheep, and sheep follow their Master where ever He goes, no questions asked and no grumbling about the journey. If the Master jumps off a cliff the sheep will follow until the last one has gone over the cleft.
EMA writes:
Lets not let this get out of control since we are brother in Christ. Ido however, believe you are teaching false doctrine, by teaching people that Baptism is not a part of being born again.
I ask again, when did Jesus become the Son of God?
Was it before His baptism or after His baptism?
If we can not be born again as John says in John 3:16-18 how can we follow Jesus example?
Why is the Church ordered to make disciples (believers and then baptize them and then teach them in that order?
You see I believe all should be done but in the proper order. I also believe any order not ordered by Jesus is out of order.
EAM writes:
Good discussion though. Thanks. we ahve already discussed these matters in private, so you know where I stand.
You expect me to remember a private conversation that took place back in January and February of 09?
Have you forgot I am 70 now. I got my 3 score and ten in looks like I didn't do a good enough job. Got to stick around a while and make up for all that lost time when I was goofing off.
God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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