The Tree of Life as God's Life

how can you be both at the sametime? That is, a member of the church and not born a gain. Example, Judas was simply a wayward child of God that made his own decisions. Judas never ceased to be his earthy fathers son and never ceased to be a chosen child of God even during his sin, correct. I dont see how you could be both at the sametime, not literallyICANT my ole evc friend. If it is necessary to be baptized to be born again, as the scripture teach, why is it only necessary for the the child of God to repent to be restored and not baptized again.In other words a person that becomes a child of God, never ceases to be a child as in the example of the prodigal son. It is only required that he return and repent, not go again through all of the MOTIONS that made him a child in the first place, correct?Please continue your discussion w/ Jayswill and we can discuss this as a side issue, if space allowsEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

The calvinist and campbellite converse. I will not let this get out of hand, ,because we are brothers in Christ, I think or I hope So in the desert he rejects the devil and when talking to Peter tells him get behind me Satan, but then chooses a devil to be one on his fold. Isnt this alot like Purpledawn saying that Pharoah didnt have a choice all of it was orchestrated by God for his purposes. Where is freedom of choice.Was Jesus saying that Peter was the Devil, or should we understand it figuratively? My guess is that jesus was saying you are for all intents and purposes acting like the devil, Judas and Peter, stop it. Now notice, one changed his mind (Peter), the other did not, he hanged himself out of guilt, but my guess is that he repented of his actions and in his heart and mind through these actions, I Hope.If Judas was literally a devil or the devil then we must conclude that Peter was as well. If not, why not?And finally, Devils dont repent or feel guilty about anything, unless you can show me a passage that suggests they do Judas was not a Jew, a chosen child of God, before the new Covenant? How do you justify this statement. How was Judas not a child of God anymore than Moses, Mary, Daniel, or anyother Old Testament Jew. Yes and no, but It is not necessary to quibble this point with semantics. In the rest of the verses in the New Testament that deal with what it takes be born again as a child of God.I will only cite a few since both you and I are familiar with most of them.
In John 3:5, "Jesus said you must be born again of water and the spirit". It doesnt say anything about belief here, so should I conclude this is all I need to do to be born again. should I disregard the rest of the scriptures concerning belief , repentance and baptism and faithfulness. Surely you know this is not the way to proceed.The easiest is in Acts chapter 2. Peter had preached the good news of jesus, his Jewish brethern said,Now that we believe , "What must we do to be saved" Peter didnt say that all fellas, your good to go. hesaid "repent and be baptzed everyone of you in the nameof jesus Christ, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and you will be saved" I love these verses they are the most important even spoken,. but they are not all that one needs to do tocomplete obedience to God to become a child of God. belief or faith is only the first step in recievingremission of sins. Not because I decided that but that is the way God choose to implement his Newcovenant, peter used the figurative keys to open the door to that New system.Here is a simple example. Paul said Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteouness"
But what was involved in Abrahams belief, the following of the specifics commands God gave him.Abraham followed Gods commands to get up and move, to sacrifec his son. While he may have hadsome doubts he never it seems failed to obey Gods commands.This is of course what is involved in belief or faith in God, doing what he asks you to do. Acts of faith arenot works, they are acts o f obedience. So yes you are correct, there is no regeneration in the actualwater of Baptism, there is regeneration in Christ blood, belief in that fact and then following through,with what other requirments he has commanded, even if that is the steps to becoming a child of God.If Abraham had never obeyed Gods wishes or commands, do you think it could be said he believed God.Baptism is not a work and it is not ahuman concept, it is an acto faith, to make faith in God what it needsto be, believable. Abrahams righteouness was attributed through belief and obedience, not works.Baptism is simply the method of obedience he has established to brign us into contact with the blood ofChrist"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Given Acts 2:38, there is noreason to percieve this as figurative If you dont believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, of what value would be baptism? There would be noneed to repeat baptism as a necessity, if you dont believe in Christ int he first placeIf I said to you, Come to the store in MY car ICANT and I will give you 1000 dollars and you choose to notcome in the first place, there would be no need to call you and ask you why you did not come to the storeand then FURTHER ASK YOU why you did not come in my car. It should be obvious that you did notbring my car, because you did not come at all, why repeat the part about the car. This exacally whatJesus is saying. If you dont believe, Baptism is of no effect anyway. No need to repeat it in the samesenstence. You know this is not all Paul said and I just quoted him above I agree 100%, but can that Son do something to be put in prison forever, so while still his fathers son, be separted by prison foreverLets not let this get out of control since we are brother in Christ. Ido however, believe you are teaching false doctrine, by teaching people that Baptism is not a part of being born again. I however will not be your judge on thatGood discussion though. Thanks. we ahve already discussed these matters in private, so you know where I stand.EAM

I assume you are responding to my last post so I will wait for that. In the meantime let me ask you a simple question in connection with this discussion.what is your point in insisting that there is no universal chruch? I mean you are where you are, I am where I am, Jaywill is where he is, we are all born again, saved, members of the church/kingdom, but we are are all in different locations, but still Gods children through Christ. Are we not, and all the rest of the Christians scattered throught the world, the universal church?I think that is all jaywill is really saying. whats wrong with that, am I missing something. What is the difference and what is your point?Yes the word church can mean a group of people anywhere, for any purpose, but when it refers to Christs church, it would mean HIS at anytime, before during or after Pentecost. But there is a sense in which the church before Pentecost did not include the Gentiles, correct? I think this is Christs meaning when he says I will build my Church. Now and not then it includes both jew and Gentile, correct? Its NOW universal to include all classes of people."There is neither Jew ro Greek, bond or free, male or female, all are one in Christ" This aspect of the Chruch did not exist before Pentecost , correct?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

You two jokers, thats funny. I use to live in Florida when I was a child, I have very fond memories of that state. The trees, the sand, the beaches, I love to surf fish, that is some of the most fun fishing you can ever do, you never know what you are going to pull in from that vast ocean, using that gigantic pole.I was going to respond to both of your posts in detail, but I think that is not necessary, except to respond to your position on Baptism.
As Iread your post there was a much larger issue that kept jumping out at me and that issue is that you are wasting your valuable time arguing MINOR points with me, when you should and as you have been using that vast amounts of knowlegde battling those that are in opposition to God and his word, specifically here on this website.You have a great gift for discussion and debate and it should be focused in the right direction. you have vasts amounts of knowledge both in and out of the scriptures, over a vast areas of topics. Your knowledge you have accumulated over 70 plus years in nothing short of impressive.I do believe your position on the plan of salvation and specifically Baptism for the remission of sins and its place in the plan is misdirected. The plan you set out is not the one taught in Acts chapter 2. The simple plan in that book is belief, repentance, Baptism, then the remission of sins, its to easy to miss.Yes I am aware Baptism can be used as a symbol of salvation but that is not all that Baptism is as the simple words by Peter indicate.I am also aware that the greek word EIS can be used to mean, "Because of" instead of "In order to obtain". The context here would also match the statement by Jesus, when he stated:"This is the blood of my covenant, which is shed for many for the remmision of sins"Jesus did not shed his blood "because of" sins already being forgiven, but "in order that" sins may be forgiven.The command for Baptism is to easy to miss in to many places, as In Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 10:48. Peter then specifies what the exact nature and purpose is of its function of Gods plan of salvation, in Acts chapter 2.If Belief and acceptance was all that was necessary in that instance, Peter would not have follwed up with the specific instructions he did.We literally go into the water an old man and are a new creature in Christ when we come up outof the water. Its Gods plan for where we reach the blood of Christ."Therefore we are buried with Christ in Baptism, that like was rasied from the dead, we also rise, TO WALK A NEWNESS OF LIFE" Romans chapter 6.We go into the water a sinful man and come out with our robes washed in the blodd of the lamb.When Paul was instructed by Ananias on what to do, Saul already believed in Christ and had accepted him, he was then told WHAT ELSE TO DO. "Why do you wait (tarriest thou), arise be Baptized and wash away your sins".Yes Baptism can be used as a symbol, but there are to many examples in the book of Acts that make it aboundantly clear that it is Gods plan as a part of the plan of salvation. its to easy to miss.yes ther are instances in the scriptures where the author uses the word faith to ENCOMPASS all that God requires in a single word. However, as I explained before, FAITH is used as a synecdoche, meaning a part the whole, or whole for the part.Faith is an encompassing word to demonstrate the overall attitude that should be directed twords God. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteouness. there were however, many specfic things that God required of him to MAKE that faith or belief justified, it was not simply a mental exercise.Faith is only real and alive if it is DEMONSTRATED IN OBEDIENCE to what God requires after an initial belief in a mental exercise. these are not works, but obedience because of an active faithYes, "By grace you are SAVED through FAITH, that not of yourself it is a gift of God" The faith has to be exercised in OBEDIENCE to whatever commands God requires in that connection."Why tarriest thou, arise and be Baptized and wash away you sins"
Wash away you sins, not with water but with t he blood of Christ, though this is where the Apostle Peter and Paul through inspiration indicate we contact that blood. belief is not enough accorfding to the scriptures.I simply wanted to make this point and I will let yourself and jaywill discuss the other issues.My imput would be to not waste to much time on minor matters, you have a greater mission. But remember your a christian first.You two jokers, thats funnyEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

ICANT none of the people in these verses are lying about anything,they are all saying the samething, but from a different perspective. Some of the writers at times are speaking of salvation in a general sense, that is by making statements like, He that believeth is not condemened, etc. here the word belief is being used in a general sense, in the form of a synecdoche a figure of speech, meaning a part for the whole.later in the same book by the same author he quotes jesus by saying and demonstrating how one is born again and believes in christ by stating, "One must be born of water and the Spirit to be born again"Now watch this, we now have more information in a specific sense how we are to believe and obey.Later the Apostles, specifically Peter, narrows down even further what the characteristics are of belief or faith in Christ by stating, repent and be baptized in conjuntion with your overall belief or faith.Yes ICANT there are many verses that speak of belief and faith in a general sense, but we must take and FOLLOW all the examples by the Apostles, especially in thier specifics. we cant pick and choose.Now watch, if baptism is not a requirement before we recieve remission of sins, as indicated in Acts chapter 2, then it would follow that I can also recieve the remission of sins without repenting of my sins, or recieve it before I repent.These people had not repented of thier sins and had not been baptized, for, if repentance is simply a part of belief as in the verse, Peter would have not addressed and recognized it. They had not, they had only NOW, had basic knowledge of JesusChrist, which they believed in the form of aquired knowledge.Peter now through inspiration of the Holy Spirit recognized the necessity of two more things, the necessity of them understanding they needed to repent of past sins, which separated them from God and to follow the specific command of Jesus through his Apostles to be Baptized as well. TWO MORE things, repent and be baptizedIn acts chapter 2:38, there are two commands that form a coodinating conjunction, in other words you cant have one without the other, Repent and be baptized. If they recieved remission of sins before these two requirements, then it would follow they recieved remission of sins before they repented.They were pricked in thier hearts at the hearing of JesusChrist plight and what they had done to him. There was still more to be done with regard to thier transformation. for them to recognize thier own sins that seperated them from God, this is what he is being specific about when he speaks of repentance. the already recognized thier mistake in crucifying the son of God, now they needed to be aware of thier entire life of sins that seperated them from God. hence the Apostle extends the command of repentance to cover this area and then shows them how to get rid of these sins entirly by obedience to the command of Baptism FOR the remission of sinsYes the Holy Spirit fell on these gentiles and the Christ made a special appearance to Saul, both of which neither indicate that they were saved before following Gods commands. In both these instances they were still required to follow commands that are required by all anywhere to recieve remission of sins.I have no contention with the fact that salvation is often used in a general sense to represent all that involved in the specifics. The book of acts makes it abundantly clear that Baptism was a very specific and immediate action and command, taken by the Apostles and that, it is for the remission of sins.When the Apostle or Apostles say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, it should not be understood, that they did not NOT practice that which was commanded by Christ. Simply because in certain situations it is not mentioned specifically, there is no reason to believe it was not an overall practice. Here is an exampleIn Acts 8, Phillip preaches Christ to the Ethiopian but there is no mention of him specifically talking about baptism, but he must have taught it, as a command and immediate action. For the Ethiopian says, "here is water what henders me from being baptized"now we see the command and urgency of its necessity by indirect implication. this, in conjunction with what and how Peter describes its function, makes it abundantly clear of its IMPORTANCE in the plan of salvation and its SPECIFIC purpose You cannot be a fit subject before God without the remission of sins and he spoke through his inspired Apostle and Apostles to demonstrate how that is accomplished.The thief on the cross was still under the old system or the Old Law. Besides this, Jesus was God and he said in a certain place:These signs are accomplished that you may know that the Son of Man has power to forgive sins while he is on the earth. No Apostle had this specific power to forgive sins directly, outside of christ's specific authority, as when he sent them out. After this they could only make it KNOWN and available through a system Christ left in place after his departure. It is SPECIFIED in no uncertain terms in Acts Chapter 2. Notice that after christs death and ressurection and ascension, no Apostle said, I absolve your sins as did Christ. They preached a message of how that was now accomplished through repentence and baptismAfter his depature the New Covenant he established through his Apostles would take affect. Belief, repentance and Baptism for the remission of sins, was that system, that will be in place until his return. Not according to what is commanded by Christ, commanded and praticed by the Apostles, not according to the examples in the NT and taught in no uncertain terms in Acts chapter 2Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

repentance, confession and baptism are not mentioned in this verse, should I conclude they are not necessary because they are not mentioned. according to your logic, I dont need them, I can have remission of sins before I repent and or confess, if i simply believe.James says the devils BELIEVE but i bet they are not savedEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

not really there is not that much that needs to be fixed and I believe I can demonstrate why
God already fixed it but I hope the following helpsyes one of us may be wrong about the exact purpose of baptism, but let me say this. i dont believe one is justified in believing that baptism is NOT command, that is to clear to miss.I also believe that Batism is a direct response to belief in the gospel of christ and his ressurection, therefore the efficacy of baptism would hinge on that belief. So in my view, whether one actually knows that it is for the forgiveness of sins or whether one UNDERSTANDS all its specifics, IS MINOR to the fact that one believes this is what God wishes of them and that he or she believes jesus actually rose from the dead.If a person is baptized in this connection (response to belief in the gospel)and for these reasons, his exact understanding of the nature and purpose of baptism will not make nill the affects of Baptism.. Its not necessary for one to understand all its implications for it to be effective from Gods perspective
All that is necesary is that they obey the command, it, as something God requires and it is a response to the Gospel, then that person then becomes a child of God according to the scriptures.Sometimes we make the mistake in assuming we need to understand all the reasons and purposes for a command for it to be affective. This is wrong because the power to forgive sins is not in our understanding but in Gods power to saveEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Right, his baptism was necessary to "FULLFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", as Christ himself stated.Christ's baptism and its purposes was slightly different for him than it is for us. he was setting the example as he did in observing the sabbath, even though he was LORD OF THE SABBATH. He made the law in the first placeFor our purposes it is a wonderous command to obey which results in the remissionof sins."When they heard this they were pricked in thier hearts (they believed) and said, men and brethren, what must we do? Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, for, THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Salvation) Acts 2:38Its all there in one neat package. belief, repentance, confession, baptism and the forgiveness of sinsI think most people that are baptized are doing it in a response to the Gospel, and the results of this obedience, results in the remission of sins through his blood, as PROMISED BY THE SCRIPTURESIt is sad however people have removed the original teaching, place and purpose of baptism from its original God designed intentions. To teach that it is not necessary to be born again is unscriptural, but it it interesting people some how find a place for it. I suppose that is all that matters.Thanks for the discussionEAM

Maybe, but my guess is that what exist past this physical plane of existence is going to be so much more intriging and wonderful, the thought of presiding over or coming back to this type of existence will be almost repugnant. But I could be wrong This is what I meant yesterday when I was speaking about you and jaywill, your Zeal is much stronger than your knowledge or you skills. Happy thanksgivingEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

ICANT writes:Jaywill writes:This is what I meant earlier when I said, this is where you fellas skills really reside. Your both dedicated Bible students, your both love the Lord and when we discuss, with eachother in this spirit, HE cannot put division and strife amoung us.You both sound like early New Testament writers., ieJaywillwrites:Hmmmm? I wonder who that sounds like, maybe Paul.Impressive stuff, I am enjoying your posts, keep up the good workEAM

ICANT writes:Then we are in agreement on the Doctrine of baptism. I told you there was nothing that really needed fixin, as we say down here.EAM

Sorry I fell out of this for a while, got very busy, please continue with your exegesis, I am truely enjoying what you are writing. Its kinda nice to have a discussion that is not a debate.Please proceed with what ever you have to offer in this connectionEAM

If by this, you mean we are saved from our sins that alienated us from God before coming a child of God, member of the body of Christ, then NO, I do not agree with this estimation. This is not what the scriptures teachI did not get the e-mail, send it to resolve8538@yahoo.com, thanks againEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.