Sex Education

Of course, the difference between sex and food is that the food you are eating doesn't have to agree to be consumed, doesn't walk away from the meal afterwords, doesn't have the potential to change their mind and have regrets, etc.

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Believe it or not we really are like most people, just without the preconceptions and so hangups about what we can enjoy.

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How do you know it isn't just a difference in taste (which you say you support) rather than people having "preconceptions" and "hangups"?I mean, if we didn't have cultural differences, there wouldn't be "preconceptions" or "hangups".It's when you use value-laden, vaguely condescending comments like the ones above that make me think that you believe that other people's tastes and cultural differences are not as valid or as good as yours.I wouldn't have brought this up if you hadn't vehemently denied my contention that you believe your tastes and values are superior to all others'.You have every right to believe that your lifestyle and personal philosophy is superior to everyone else's, and that everyone who doesn't share your taste is lacking in maturity or hasn't expanded their consciousness, or whatever, but I really just wish you would admit it.

I really don't think that there is a way to spin the use of the word "hangup" in a positive way.a "hangup" is always considered a negative.I mean, here's what Merriam Webster says:hangup1) A psychological or emotional difficulty or inhibition.
2) An obstacle to smooth progress or development.I think that when someone uses that word that it sounds condescending.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to argue for here, as you have consistently ridiculed other cultures that have preconceptions and hangups you do not like, while I have only defended the existence of my own.

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Pot calling the kettel black.You have done plenty more than just defend your own culture.I mean, you just got done calling other cultures which do not share your sexual attitude "silly" and everyone in them as having "hangups".

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If strip clubs looked like sweat shops, and the women were as oppressed there as in sweat shops, they would not be as popular as they are.

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Some of them do look like sweat shops.And why wouldn't they be popular.Strung out, nasty-looking street hookers are popular, and they look like they got fired from a sweat shop.

Look, I just think that using the word "hangup" carries a critical, condescending tone, and using the phrase "personal limits" or similar does not sound like a value judgement, nor critical.

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Really, which ones?

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Some of the ones in rural or poor inner city areas, for example.I've heard some nasty stories from several male friends and aquaintences.

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But more important, give me percentages.

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Why?

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Because most guys don't like women that look unhappy and unhealthy.

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LOL!Then why do they like runway models? Or the Olsen Twins?

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Some might, but most don't.

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Your opinion.

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Wtf do you know about what is or is not popular in the sex business?

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If they couldn't get money, then they wouldn't be there, would they?I can drive to downtown Detroit and see these women every night of the week, so obviously they are getting plenty of business.

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That street prostitutes exist, does not mean they are popular, nor that their "look" is popular.

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They seem to be popular enough with the people in and around Detroit, otherwise they wouldn't be out there every night.

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Oh yeah, and if guys liked nasty-looking street hookers, that's what girls and the fashion industry would be shooting for.

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Uh, a lot of high fashion models DO look like strung out heroin addicts.I would be willing to bet that a larger percentage of fashion models ARE drug addicts when compared to the general population.

Holmes, I just want to say that your whole response seems like you are getting incredibly bent out of shape because I dared to say that some strip joints are not, in reality, happy-shiny wonderful temples devoted to the celebration of hedonism.They just aren't all like that.

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Can I ask what doesn't look like a sweat shop within rural or poor inner city areas?

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How is that relevant?You asked which strip clubs looked like sweatshops, and I told you which ones.

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As far as anecdotes go... well you know about anecdotes, as you deride them enough. Hearsay is even worse.

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So, are you telling me that the run down, seedy, nasty looking strip joints in inner city Detroit are really lovely palaces that are devoted to the reverence of the female form on the inside, drug, violence and coersion free?I have no reason to doubt my brother and a close friend among others when they tell me that they were in nasty strip joints.You are the one claiming what strip clubs are like, I'm just pointing out that there are nasty, sweatshop-like exceptions to your happy-shiny mental image of nice, clean, happy titty bars.

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Why would I ask for perentages when I was dealing with an argument suggesting strip clubs were like sweat shops? If I said bakeries and delis were like sweat shops, wouldn't you be interested in what statistical evidence I had to make such a statement?

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Not unless I made a claim that a certain number or percentage of bakeries or delis were like sweat shops, which I didn't.I claimed that some were. I really don't understand why you are arguing with me about this. Clearly, there ARE some nasty strip clubs that are like sweat shops. Are you seriously claiming that there is no such thing as a sweatshop-like strip club anywhere in the world? That they don't exist?In fact, YOU were the one making a claim about what most strip clubs are like, based upon your personal opinion of what most men wanted to look at, so why don't YOU provide some stats to support YOUR claim?

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Who looks like runway models or the Olsen twins? Street prostitutes?

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Some of the street prostitutes around here look extremely thin, although not as tall or as well-dressed as runway models.They also smoke just as much.

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Get me some pix of the prostitutes around where you live. In Chicago they sure didn't look like that.

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There were no super skinny prostitutes around there? I find that hard to believe.

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And are you suggesting the runway models and Olsen Twins look unhappy and unhealthy? Maybe underweight, but not like a junkie in misery.

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Hold it. Don't change what you are talking about in mid thought. We were not talking about looking misterable. We were talking about looking unhappy.Runway models look unhappy as a rule. Well, they mostly look detached and blank, but they also look angry or unhappy. Every once in a while, for some designers, they are instructed to smile, but mostly not.This is a typical runway model, isn't it? Bony and unhappy looking.

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That's right. My opinion counts less than yours in this right? Because why exactly?

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Well, you are telling me that most men don't like unhealthy and unhappy looking women, yet grumpy-looking models and underweight women are certainly quite popular with many men in my culture.

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Shame shame shame. This is getting pathetic.

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Yawn, yawn, yawn. Another condescending lecture from holmes.

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That they get money is no sign that they are popular. It is a sign that enough people are desperate enough to hire them that they can make what they need. If they were really popular then they wouldn't have to hang out on the street hoping anyone passing by might pick them up.

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Um, what?

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Wow what great skills. Guess who else I see every day looking for money on the street? Xian fundies, hari krishnas, and bums, lots and lots of squalid bums.

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In fact the bums outnumber the street prostitutes. Does this Detroit place have bums?

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Sure, but many, many more people are going into the city specifically to buy hookers than to see or give money to the religious or destitute beggars. Hookers most likely get more money per hour than either group.

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What a very small mind you have. To begin to compare addicted street prostitutes to high fashion models (who may have addictions) just shows the depths to which you are willing to sink in this argument.

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You want to show me the layouts of models looking like addicts, and I don't just mean heroin chic thin, you present them. Frankly I think its a disgrace and a slap in the face of people that have real problems.

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Whatever. They resemble a sanitized version of skin and bones addicts in more than a few cases. Disneyfied, if you will. Just the fact that all of those "heroin chic" models were not a very dramatic departure (except with the male models) from the body type and size of the typical model before and after that craze in the 90's should tell you something.I know several recovering meth, cocaine, crack, alcohol, and heroin addicts personally, several of them pre-recovery. So, I don't think you need to lecture me about people with "real problems".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-13-2005 09:00 PM

OK, so NOW you are, yet again, twisting and misrepresenting my arguments into something you would rather rail against.

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It may seem like that, but that is not the case. There are certainly bad strip joints and houses of prostitution, just as there are bad anything anywhere.

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OK, great. You agree with me that there are SOME stip joints that are like sweatshops.

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The question is if it is endemic. To label all because of the few, or because of a condition beyond just their nature, is fallacious.

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Yes, it would be, but can you show me in the following, which is the entirerty of my message, where I "labeled all"?(Bold added by me)

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If strip clubs looked like sweat shops, and the women were as oppressed there as in sweat shops, they would not be as popular as they are.

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If you simply asked, aren't some strip joints bad, I'd say yeah.

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That is, more or less, what I said.

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Oh but not only did you try to suggest more from the "some",

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??"Some", on my planet, means "more than one". Is there more than one nasty strip club? I can attest to that fact, so "some" is a perfectly appropriate word to use.

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you went on to push some absurd argument about how guys mostly like the look of strung out street hookers... real popular.

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No, I never said that.I said that nasty street hookers were plenty popular, NOT that "guys mostly like the look of strung out street hookers".Just because nasty street hookers or nasty strip joints are popular doesn't mean that this is what people ideally want. It means that if this is what they can get, that's what they will consume, thus making them popular.Nowhere did I say that that all strip clubs were like that, or even most. I never even claimed that that nasty strip bars were poplular; I just asked why they wouldn't be.Have you run out of straw yet?

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The ones you've never been to, but heard about, which are stationed in very poor areas and so will likely be very poor.

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Yes, exactly.Didn't you just agree that nasty strip joints actually do exist just a few sentences ago, or are you going to deny their existence now? Because I don't discuss my feeling about things like this with my brother, nor with my friend. At the time I heard the stories, I had never had a discussion about strippers with anyone in my life and hadn't really formed much of an opinion about them.IOW, they couldn't know "my attitude" because I didn't have one yet.Anyway, are you going to now deny that nasty strip joints exist again?

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A claim was made about strip clubs in general.

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Wrong.A claim was made about SOME STRIP CLUBS.SOME! SOME! SOME!

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I rebutted that.

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You rebutted a strawman.

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When did I say that? Why is free from drastic exploitation equal to palaces and temples to hedonism?

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It's called hyperbole, holmes. Exaggeration for effect.

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Some are better than others. Some suck.

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Right.Some suck....which is the point of my post above.

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I simply used misery in place of unhappy. They mean the same thing. It is perhaps a difference in degree, but not necessarily.

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Now you are trying to wiggle away.The words are quite different in degree.I can be unhappy with a haircut but does it make sense to then assume that I am in misery because of a bad haircut?Once again, you show yourself pretty much incapable of refraining from misrepresenting my arguments, especially when it comes to this subject, over which you tend to get overly emotional.

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Some do not effect what you can say about the rest. If you agree that there are some really bad strip clubs, and there are also some really good ones, and most fall somewhere in between, and that the some that are bad do not allow one to make a judgement on srip clubs in general... then we are in agreement.

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Then we are in agreement.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-15-2005 12:16 AM

yep.

Well, alright then.I let our history get the better of me, so I apologize for any jumping down of your throat that occurred.