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Author Topic:   What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 152 of 167 (209182)
05-17-2005 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Sylas
05-17-2005 8:54 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
I agree that it makes an assumption that may not be warranted, but I also note that there are cultural behaviors that have worked to remove {populations\individuals} from the gene pool (should they get a Darwin Award?), and not just the John Jones cults, but the shakers, and countless celibates of many stripes.
So the question comes down to one of {a set of behaviors} that is beneficial to survival that an individual would be less inclined to indulge in without the "approval" of some {divine authority system}, and then whether subsequent survival would tend to reinforce the behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Sylas, posted 05-17-2005 8:54 PM Sylas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Sylas, posted 05-17-2005 9:53 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 153 of 167 (209184)
05-17-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 9:33 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
you are welcome to your opinions, but to counter the concepts you need to provide an argument of why they don't work and substantiate that with evidence.
and strawman arguments don't do that either.
Predictible Darwinian rant.
Predictable uninformed ad hominum response that does nothing to address the issue.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 154 of 167 (209186)
05-17-2005 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by RAZD
05-17-2005 9:44 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
I made an observation.
RM

This message is a reply to:
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Sylas
Member (Idle past 5250 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 155 of 167 (209188)
05-17-2005 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by RAZD
05-17-2005 9:38 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
You've omitted the essential feature of inheritance. There's deep water lurking here. The notion of the "meme" -- poorly defined and not rigourously analysed -- is an attempt to map evolutionary notions into the field of ideas; but I'm frankly dubious that linkage to the scientific models used in evolutionary biology is all that useful. It also runs into strife with the notion of just what is the replicator: the organism or the idea itself.
I'd have no particular problem with the question phrased as "what is it about religion or about humanity that makes religion such a persistent and pervasive phenomenon?" The same questions could be asked about music, or body piercing. It's the explicit invocation of "evolutionary advantage" that raises red flags for me. I do not think this has anything much to do with evolutionary advantages at all.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2005 9:38 PM RAZD has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 156 of 167 (209189)
05-17-2005 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Sylas
05-17-2005 9:53 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
but there is evidence of a persistent physiology that is prone to religious beliefs. the yellow motorcycle helmut experiment demonstrates this condition. some people are more prone than others.
the theory is that this is a side effect of the way the brain works, but has it been selected for or is it just along for the ride?

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1389 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 157 of 167 (209191)
05-17-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 9:35 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
selective has to do with selection principles, i.e. the ability to survive and reproduce.
I'll try to restate, to make things clearer. Are you saying that the evolutionary advantage to religion is that you believe in a true God that exists, and therefore that God will somehow make it more likely that you'll survive and reproduce in this lifetime? And if you are saying this, then by what mechanism (i.e. how) does God do that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 9:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 10:16 PM Ben! has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 158 of 167 (209194)
05-17-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Ben!
05-17-2005 9:59 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
I'll try to restate, to make things clearer. Are you saying that the evolutionary advantage to religion is that you believe in a true God that exists, and therefore that God will somehow make it more likely that you'll survive and reproduce in this lifetime? And if you are saying this, then by what mechanism (i.e. how) does God do that?
By ensuring your attempts at procreation will be successful.
The God of the Bible: "Be fruitful and multiply".
How does God do it ?
Genesis 38: 9,10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
This passage exists within the context of God's promise to Abraham - that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars of heaven and the sand on the seashore.
Blowing your climax on the ground instead of inside the oven (when you knew what God wanted) got Onan killed.
This is one method to ensure impregnation
RM
This message has been edited by Ray Martinez, 05-17-2005 07:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Ben!, posted 05-17-2005 9:59 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Ben!, posted 05-17-2005 10:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1389 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 159 of 167 (209198)
05-17-2005 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 10:16 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
This is one method to ensure impregnation
Haha
But I'm a bit confused by your argument. Are you saying that this happened only in the past, and that this type of event "selected" believers to a degree that a significant part of the population became believers?
Or are you saying this kind of thing still goes on today?
And if it's not still going on today, do you think there's an evolutionary advantage religion to religion today? If so, what's the mechanism?

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 160 of 167 (209203)
05-17-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Ben!
05-17-2005 10:31 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
But I'm a bit confused by your argument. Are you saying that this happened only in the past, and that this type of event "selected" believers to a degree that a significant part of the population became believers?
Yes.
The pool of offspring were more protected than a "heathen" pool.
The Abrahamic pool was promised to numerically become as the "stars of heaven/sand on seashore."
This analogy makes one of the following population groups Abraham's descendants:
1) Africans
2) Chinese
3) Slavic
4) Celtic
Other designated attributes of these peoples identify the Celts as the descendants of Abraham.
It is historical fact that the Celtic nations, namely, Great Britain and the U.S. are repsonsible for evangelizing the world.
Or are you saying this kind of thing still goes on today?
To a certain degree - yes.
And if it's not still going on today, do you think there's an evolutionary advantage religion to religion today? If so, what's the mechanism?
Don't really understand your question.
But the mechanism above is the Deity being in control.
RM

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Replies to this message:
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wnope
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 167 (209206)
05-17-2005 11:03 PM


Oddly enough...
In essence, it isn't just that Religion is beneficial to humans, but that Religion itself is an idea that self-replicates due to its nature.
Let's look at several reason why Religion is useful:
1. Unification- Priests practically rules Mesopotamia, and wars were justified much quicker if under the pretense that God wanted it. Also, Divine Right also helped Kings avoid rebellion.
2. Control under Unification- The idea of God is better than even the thought police because God is always watching and judging. Any ruler can simply show that if people do not follow certain ethical rules, they will go to hell. Unlike athiestic early civilizations, this enforcer was around 24/7, watching every individual like a hawk.
3. Control under Enforcement- How can a wise man take control of a band of brutes if the only rules is the toughest wins? How does a Priest benefit off of thousands of people without rebellion? Because there is no fear like the fear of eternal hell. I can think of no better way to control a civilization full of stronger and potentially smarter adversaries then to gain mental control over the populace's views of the after-life.
Now, here are some reasons why Religion replicates itself so easily and is so appealing:
1. Unanswered questions- With higher thought comes complex questioning. Man has always wondered where he came from. Remembering that Darwinism was not around, what would seem like the most likely explanation for the seemingly unexplainable events occuring (such as lightning)? Why of course, a higher power, a supernatural being(s) that can do anything. It answers the question quite easily.
2. Fear of the unknown- Mortality, death, is scary. Even today, there are many who would willingly disillusion themselves with the idea of an afterlife then face mortality. The afterlife is appealing because it is the opposite, immortality. While we no longer are living on earth, we are still living in heaven. You may say that we are then dead, but as long as our mind and "spirit" are intact, what is the difference between living in heaven and living on earth?
3. Lack of purpose- You'll usually find this in the stories of born-agains. Life has no purpose if we were simply created by chemicals. Isn't it easier to imagine that there we were given duties to perform? A goal?
4. Fear of lonliness- Almost universival among religion is the idea of a personal God, one who has some sort of relationship with the individual, whether it be loving, caring, or even amusement. The personal God is like a foster parent, a guardian always watching over you. What is a safer feeling than that?

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2005 7:27 AM wnope has replied
 Message 166 by lfen, posted 05-19-2005 12:05 AM wnope has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6344 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 162 of 167 (209211)
05-17-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 10:51 PM


Let's not veer off topic
Welcome back into the asylum Ray/WT - I've missed your unique slant on things since Percy banned you.
quote:
The Abrahamic pool was promised to numerically become as the "stars of heaven/sand on seashore."
This analogy makes one of the following population groups Abraham's descendants:
1) Africans
2) Chinese
3) Slavic
4) Celtic
Other designated attributes of these peoples identify the Celts as the descendants of Abraham.
This is all way off topic so all I'll say is if you want to start a thread to show us how/why this is true I'll be interested (have you got anything new since last time ?).

Oops! Wrong Planet

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 163 of 167 (209296)
05-18-2005 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by wnope
05-17-2005 11:03 PM


Re: Oddly enough...
Unification- Priests practically rules Mesopotamia, and wars were justified much quicker if under the pretense that God wanted it.
So you're saying priests used religious tendencies of people to control them for personal gain?
Unlike athiestic early civilizations, this enforcer was around 24/7,
unwarranted assertion contrary to most common interpretations of early ceremonial artifacts and special burials. are you talking about earlier hominids? is it possible to be atheistic before theism exists?
Why of course, a higher power, a supernatural being(s) that can do anything. It answers the question quite easily.
I think you need to go back to earlier forms of religion and see how nature was imbued with spirit rather than big powerful fully conceptualized gods. You also make several comments that assume such a monotheistic god within the context of an earlier religion.
Fear of lonliness- Almost universival among religion is the idea of a personal God, one who has some sort of relationship with the individual, whether it be loving, caring, or even amusement. The personal God is like a foster parent, a guardian always watching over you. What is a safer feeling than that?
This is also answered by having ancestor spirits looking over you.
You have some interesting ideas, and thanks. Oh and welcome to the fray.
There are some tweaks and tricks you can learn (like quote boxes) by looking at the post in {peek} mode (button at end of posts bottom right corner) - they open in a new window. Also if you reply to a specific person please use the reply button at the end of their post (rather than the {general reply} button) as this (1) links your post the the previous one, (2) usually sends an email notification to the person for response, and (3) allows you to use {peek mode} in the response so you can copy text as coded (italics, bolds, superscripts, etcetera) as well as learn tricks in the process.
enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by wnope, posted 05-17-2005 11:03 PM wnope has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by wnope, posted 05-18-2005 9:09 PM RAZD has replied

  
wnope
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 167 (209512)
05-18-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by RAZD
05-18-2005 7:27 AM


Re: Oddly enough...
Thanks for the tips, I was wondering how to do those things. Although I'm still not sure how to get grey boxes around quotes without simply copying and pasting the html code for it then copying and pasting the sentences.
I can honestly say that your response excites me, because I have visited many debate sites and rarely find ones with the sort of quality rebuttals I am witnessing here.
Your points are valid because, as you mention, I have forgotten in the "usefulness" section to include pre-cilivization religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2005 7:27 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 05-18-2005 9:19 PM wnope has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 165 of 167 (209514)
05-18-2005 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by wnope
05-18-2005 9:09 PM


Re: Oddly enough...
thanks and you're welcome or is that you're welcome and thanks? also note when typing a reply that on the left there is
HTML On (help)
dBCodes On (help)
Smiles Legend
you can click on those (they also open in a new window) and they give examples of usage and coding
I can honestly say that your response excites me, because I have visited many debate sites and rarely find ones with the sort of quality rebuttals I am witnessing here.
Y'all gon make my head swole. There are many posters here that I admire for their responses, so stick around and enjoy.
ps -- I use a cheat sheet: a word file that has preformatted quote boxes, typing in a word document is easier to do and you can use spell-check and the like.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 05*18*2005 09:22 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by wnope, posted 05-18-2005 9:09 PM wnope has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4668 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 166 of 167 (209539)
05-19-2005 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by wnope
05-17-2005 11:03 PM


Re: Oddly enough...
In essence, it isn't just that Religion is beneficial to humans, but that Religion itself is an idea that self-replicates due to its nature.
wnope,
Welcome to EvC. I find this line of inquirey very interesting but very complex. With agriculture supplying a surplus of food an area could support a larger population and some members were freed from subsistence duties to provide a ruling class, a priest class, and soldiers, artists and etc. As you point out religion is an integral part of early civilization. Government, science, health, history, and art were all combined in religion.
I think science and rationality are emerging as a new function for humans and this development is a new challenge just as at one time agricultural and a settled life in large populations was a challenge over the hunter gatherer bands of early man.
I think one way of looking at this forum is the dialogue between traditionalists and "early adopters" of a scientific rational approach.
I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on this.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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