Psychology looks at atheism and theism. Also, atheism is tenuous/non-existent/rare ..

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If a professed materialist wishes to dispute the sincerity of Christian martyrs, I would suggest they at least offer one materialist martyr with a supporting link first).

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Invalid comparison.The existence or nonexistence of materialist martyrs is completely irrelevant to the question of the sincerity of Christian martyrs.

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If a professed materialist wishes to dispute the sincerity of Christian martyrs, I would suggest they at least offer one materialist martyr with a supporting link first).

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Invalid comparison.The existence or nonexistence of materialist martyrs is completely irrelevant to the question of the sincerity of Christian martyrs.

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Science is alledgedly the reason why professed atheist reject God according to many professed atheists.

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Not many of the athiests I know.

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Oh come on Schraff. All the proclaiming unbelievers I know think that God has something to do with fairytales/delusions. EVERY proclaiming unbeliever I have met mentions naturalism and the irrational position of "belief".

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OK.What does that have to do with science being the "reason" people don't believe in God?Naturalism and science are not the same thing.

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At no time has a proclaiming unbeliever "seen" any design, apart from poor design, despite the fine-tuning of the universe.

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So what?Just because the universe does not appear to be supernaturally designed doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

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Hence the wild and desperate multiple universe theories.

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Yes, I am sure the Cosmologists who hypothesize about such things are desperate, crazed people on the verge of mental collapse because they aren't Christians just like you.

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All my experience has shown me these basic positions; "But we've found out now how we came to be, through evolution, God didn't make us"..(This is a regular proclaimer's argument I've came across)

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Well, that's fine, but that isn't relevant to the [/b]athiests I know[/b].

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Other well conjured and vastly superior arguments(lol) include "sky daddy" and "your dependent on emotion rather than intellect"....Lmao.

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Are you assuming that the only possible way to believe in God is the way you do?There is much to ridicule in some of the ways some Christians characterize their God, you know.

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SO I'm with Ken - prove you're an atheist.

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Why would I try to do that when I'm not an athiest?

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You have so far offered no evidence.

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Prove you're a Christian.

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I think it is reasonable that I think you proclaim atheism because of your own dissatisfaction with God,

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I'm not dissatisfied with God.How can I be dissatisfied with that which I don't know exists or not?How can I be dissatisfied with that which I have no reason to believe I could ever comprehend, even if it does exist?

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and you deep down know that God exists.

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Stop with the patronizing, arrogant bullshit, mike.Who the fuck are you to tell me what I believe?

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You must wake up from these delusions that God doesn't exist, that regularly comfort you,

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They comfort me?How do they do that?

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despite your deep subconscious realization of God's existence. It's time to face this unavoidable reality. You have to stop this "comfort" reasoning which is emotional, and stop taking comfort from hoping death is the end.

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If you think that realizing that death is most likely "the end" is comforting, you haven't ever really contemplated it.

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and we're told our prayers are false, post-hoc reasoning and confirmation biased.

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I said that your claims of answered prayers were likely post hoc and biased.You have to put them to the test to find out if that is true or not, but you refuse to do so.That these thought errors and biases are common to humans has been demonstrated in numerous studies.Why should I simply take your word for things that have effects in the natural world when we know that these biases are common?

Ken, do Theists ever waver in their Theism?If so, can we then say that Theism is tenuous/nonexistent/rare?

Ken, this is the third time you have ignored this correction.Please repspond and retract.

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If a professed materialist wishes to dispute the sincerity of Christian martyrs, I would suggest they at least offer one materialist martyr with a supporting link first).

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Invalid comparison.The existence or nonexistence of materialist martyrs is completely irrelevant to the question of the sincerity of Christian martyrs.

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If you want to dismiss the sincerity of Christian martyrs I will not stop you.

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Read my post, repeated below.I did not call into question the validity of any martyrs of any stripe.I pointed out an invalid comparison that you made: [quote]If a professed materialist wishes to dispute the sincerity of Christian martyrs, I would suggest they at least offer one materialist martyr with a supporting link first). [qs]Invalid comparison.The existence or nonexistence of materialist martyrs is completely irrelevant to the question of the sincerity of Christian martyrs.[/quote]

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Get your bunsen burner out, it's time for a supernatural experiment.

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Naturalism and science are not the same thing.Ontological Naturalism, as a philosophy, is not part of science.Methodological Naturalism, as a methodology, is.The first excludes God, the second ignores God.Since there are scientists who do not hold to the philosophy of Ontological Naturalism, and in fact, do believe in God, your premise that naturalism and science are the same is refuted.

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Just because the universe does not appear to be supernaturally designed doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

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No, I said, fine-tuned. Many scientists agree that the universe DOES look designed.

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Where in their professional publications do they state this?Personal opinions and feelings are just that.

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Are you suggesting that only atheists you know qualify but not my experience of atheists?

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No. But the athiests I know are the only ones I can comment upon.

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Fact is, in Britain, more and more people skit bibleGod and laugh at creation/design,

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Why shouldn't they laugh at creationism and design in the same way you laugh at flat Earth ideas?

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and they tout evolution as a means of "no God". I have had it in my face, it happens.

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OK, but as I don't know those people, I can't comment upon them, can I?

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There is much to ridicule about people who believe they know everything,

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Yeah, those smug Christians who think they have everything all figured out because they read the Bible are annoying, aren't they?They aren't ever open to changing their beliefs because they don't take in evidence.

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and that there can't possibly be anything beyond the natural.

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Anythings possible.I like putting stock into what is [i]probable[/b], however.

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You have spoken well. Indeed I am no one to tell you what you believe. But I was asking for evidence, like you always do.

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No, you were telling me what I believe, not what to believe.My beliefs are subjective, just like yours.Of course, I make no positive claims about the existence or operation of any deity. There is no proving a negative.I could ask you to provide evidence for why you don't believe in invisible pink unicorns.

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Now now, that's the true scotsman fallacy Shraff, you know full well that anyone would qualify. (according to your side)

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Huh?That's not the true scottsman fallacy.

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Yet you say that my beliefs are made to comfort my fear of death????

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Well, you no longer fear death, do you?

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I never said the two were connected.

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OK.

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I think martydom clearly shows sincerity.

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...except that you have to now show that people considered martyrs really did die for their beliefs and not for some other reason.

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I think if you read Fox's book of martyrs and the account of early Roman martyrs it is self evident that Christian martyrs are Christians.

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They probably were.However, that is not what I said you need to show.Just because they were Christians, and were killed, doesn't mean they were killed because they were Christians.They could have been killed for any number of reasons.I am not interested in being sent to some book. If you want to debeate here, you need to debate here. What kind of debate would it be if we all just sent each other to go read books instead of discussing the evidence directly?So, what is your specific evidence that Christian martyrs were actually killed because they were Christian and not for other reasons?

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I would say the same for contempory Christian martyrs of which there are many.

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Like who?Can you document these people, and show that they were killed for being Christians and not for another reason?When are you actually going to provide specific evidence to support your claim?

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You've refuted a position I never held. I didn't say they are the same thing.

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Sure you did.Let's review what you've said:(Emphasis added by me)

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Oh come on Schraff. All the proclaiming unbelievers I know think that God has something to do with fairytales/delusions. EVERY proclaiming unbeliever I have met mentions naturalism and the irrational position of "belief".

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You said the above in response to my comment that none of the atheists I know are athiests because of science.You are the one who then brought up Naturalism, as you can see.I then asked you the following: [qs]What does that have to do with science being the "reason" people don't believe in God?Naturalism and science are not the same thing.[/quote]You then made a sarcastic statement along the lines of, "Get out your bunsen burners, time for a supernatural experiment!", as if it was incredibly obvious that Naturalism and science were the same.It seemed quite clear to me, especially when this last statement is included, that you certainly did think that Naturalism and science went hand in hand and were interchangeable.Mike, it looks like you are trying to pretend you didn't think that in order to avoid having to admit that you maybe made a mistake, or perhaps didn't know that "Naturalism" had two meanings.

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How is the complexity and obvious design of animals/universe laughable?

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Because there is no reason to think that complexity equals design.Because there is no evidence at all that animals or the universe has been designed.

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Or comparable to a flat earth?

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The evidence is overwhelming that life on earth evolved. It is just as overwhelming as the evidence that the Earth is a sphere.Therefore, to reject evolution is laughable, just as it is laughable to reject a spherical Earth.

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Why should we accept abiogenesis when there is no evidence?

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Um, why are you bringing up Abiogenesis?While I would hardly say there is zero evidence for it (we have, after all, created organic molecules from inorganic molecules), the various abiogenesis theories are not at anywhere near as well-supported as the ToE.

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There is design, and you know it.

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I do? How do you know what I know?Can you show me this design?

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If you were truly objective, why do you favour the "no God" position?

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I don't.I favor the "I don't know if God exists or not, and if God/s exists, why do we think we could comprehend it/them?" position.The reason I favor that position is because I have never felt or seen anything which would indicate to me that God/gods exist, although I cannot completely rule out the possibility that they do exist.I think that's a pretty objective view, don't you?

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I don't really know. Everyone I know is atheist.

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Maybe you wouldn't be so angry with athiests if you found some church to belong to or something, mike.

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So you seriously doubt a chance chemical evolution then?

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I think it's possible, but how life began on Earth may be something we just never know enough about to know much about with any level of confidence.So, I don't know how life got here.Just because we don't know the answer to some question doesn't give me the license to insert Godidit into that gap, however.

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Well, transparency exists - pretty easy. Pink is a colour, and unicorns are from books. How do you know they are pink it they are invisible? How do you know they are unicorns if they are invisible? I gues transparency exists though.

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But do you believe that they exist?

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Who said I ever did? Is it logical for you to assume my position through your own pre-conception?

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While you are technically correct that I have made this assumption, I think it was a reasonable one, considering what I know of the history of your beliefs.Have you ever been uneasy in the contemplation of there being "nothing" after you die, mike?

[qs]Ken, do Theists ever waver in their Theism?
If so, can we then say that Theism is tenuous/nonexistent/rare?[/quote]

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1. We have martyrs. Strong proof that theism exist.

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That doesn't answer my question.Do Theists ever waver in their Theism, and does this indicate that Theism is tenuous/nonexitent/rare?

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2. Faith is positively correlated with mental health.

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That doesn't answer my question.Do Theists ever waver in their Theism, and does this indicate that Theism is tenuous/nonexitent/rare?

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3. Our most vocal leaders do not seem to have the same issues as the militant atheist (Vitz study).

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That doesn't answer my question.Do Theists ever waver in their Theism, and does this indicate that Theism is tenuous/nonexitent/rare?

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4. We seem not to suffer with the same degree of self absorbtion which would cause us to repeatedly want to get our way despite the evidence. Utimately this causes wavering since the facts do not line up with reality.

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That doesn't answer my question.Do Theists ever waver in their Theism, and does this indicate that Theism is tenuous/nonexitent/rare?

A reply to message #156, please.

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Martyr showed commitment and sincerity. This shows some Christians believe.

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But it does not show that these Christians were actually killed because they were Christians and not for some other reason.Where is your specific evidence?