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Author | Topic: Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
xXGEARXx,
That's about the size of it, yes. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
What Jar said.
Any failure to understand the simplicity of this argument is the result of ignorant thinking. All you have done is make the sentence longer. If god forknew the outcome it must have been predestined. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
You have not demonstrated any logical connection between forknowledge and predestination. How can foreknowledge not be predestination? How can something that is absolutely known about the future not be predestined?
What we have here is a case of humans disagreeing on what the laws of logic are. No, humans agree what the laws of logic are, for quite obvious reasons. What we have is religious nutjobs being unable to accept that not only does the evidence not support you, but neither does logic. Ergo, in your opinion, not only does a requirement for evidence go out of the window, but so does logic, too. In another thread I am involved in a discussion with another atheist who maintains that religion actually does no harm, or at least not enough that we should be bothered about.. Thank you for so eloquently supporting my position that it actually does. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
How can forknowledge BE predestination? You haven't demonstrated that anywhere. I don't have to demonstrate a negative. You have to demonstrate a positive. Forknowledge is predestination because once something is forknown it cannot be any different. It must & will happen. I'll define predestined as something that must happen. At least that should be non-controversial. Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens. Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with a choice the outcome is known in advance. Given that god knows the outcome in advance it therefore must happen & therefore meets the standard of being predestined. Conclusion: Ergo, omniscience = predestination of future events. If god forknew something that later turned out to be different then he never forknew it in the first place meaning he is not omniscient. If he did forknow it it absolutely must & will come to pass. That is predestination.
The syllogism, "It will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore you can't change it." is just as valid as, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen." The only part that matters is the last part, "It will happen." and that is where the trouble arises. You assume that because it will happen we can't change it. Well you're absolutlety right, but the only reason why we can't change it is because we don't know what the future holds. If we knew what the future held, and were not able to change it, then I would say we have a problem with the idea of free will. It's not about what we know, it's about what god knows. If god knows that I am going to choose a striped shirt to put on this morning, then I cannot change that. It is predestined that I will put a striped shirt on.
but the only reason why we can't change it is because we don't know what the future holds. The only reason we can't change it is because god knows the outcome. Our not knowing what that outcome is, is irrelevant.
You'll find that true and genuine logic, the kind where all the dots are connected, often leads to the conclusion that the Christian God is the only possible God there is. The only reason we don't have access to such logic is because our minds are so finite and we still know so little about the universe. So I'll find something that I can't find? Is that the sort of logic you mean? Is that what constitutes logic "where all the dots are connected" in your book? Gooooooood grief, Charlie Brown. This is going to be one of those silly conversations that is only worth continuing for the sake of the lurkers, isn't it? Mark Edited by mark24, : No reason given. There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
OK, first, we must define the difference betweeen forknowledge and predestination: Forknowledge - Knowing in advance what will happen. (No effect produced)Predistination - Bringing about a future event. (An effect is produced) Forknowledge does not create an effect, therefore it cannot be predestination. To say, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it" is just as valid as saying, "Whatever will happen will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it." We must either accept determinism reguardless of the existance of God, or reject both of these arguments. You are just trying to define the problem away by making predestination something that must be intentionally designed. It won't work, I'll make the same argument without recourse to predestination. Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens. Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with an apparent choice when only one option actually exists. Conclusion: No actual options actually being available means free will cannot be exercised. That other options appear to exist is illusory. Try again. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBiblenano,
3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will. He couldn't have chosen any, the outcome was known in advance. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBiblenano,
So whether God is inside or outside of time, it is still logically valid to state that God has forknowledge of our choice which are made of free will.
No it isn't. This is why you have to retreat & say god exists out side of time. I'll leave you at the same point I left iano, being reduced to ad hoc fallacies to explain why god is outside of reason & logic. As the lone ranger says, "my work here is done". Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
Your work is no where near done because you haven't demonstrated that forknowledge and predestination are connected. Yes I did, see the post where I removed predestination from the syllogism to counter your attempt to define the problem away.
Plus, iano and I have proposed that God is outside of time anyway. Ad hoc. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
GIA,
God wants us to know the tree, that's why it is there .... Why punish us for someone else doing God's will, then? Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5224 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
GIA,
If your will does not offend civil law and limitations, what punishment? The fall & everything that went with it. Mark
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