Free will, or is it?

No its not. The modal fallacy is the error of treating modal conditionals as if the modality applies only to the consequent of the conditional.That is not what I am doing. You're the one misunderstanding. Stop changing what I am saying and maybe you'll get it. I'm saying that you cannot choose a different choice than the one that they have foreknowledge of. You haven't made the choice yet so you're not changing your choice. You are changing what they have foresaw you doing and then that makes their foreknowledge false. However, if their forknowledge is absolutely accurate, then you do not have the ability to change the decision that you have not made yet. You would have no free will.

Hi Scientist, As I was reading this thread I was wondering why you were making the statements you were this sentence clears that up for me.You believe that predestination = something that is predetermined to be and cannot be changed any way shape form or fashion to be the same as.Foreknowledge which is knowing in advance what is going to happen and not being able or willing to change it. as the same thing.God stands at the beginning right now and views the end right now. He sees everything at once. He is not human He is not limited by time and space He is all those things. He knows what you are doing and will do. Could He change what you will do? Sure He could but if He did then you would have no free will. God has limited Himself to the point He will not interfere with your choices.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Wow, Guys you have been in a typing race since I posted this thread. I went to bed shortly after and have only just awoken to find myself a mini series.Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for there contribution, so far I've determined this:Religious believers (sorry I don't know what to call all the non-atheist here so please correct me) believe that god knows the outcome of our choice before it is made, even though we have the freewill to make our choices.So .
Ok, lets for sake of argument agree with this. If this is so then god knew Adam was going to dam the human race. Therefore he must have know that I’m going to hell because I was born a bastard (Dam my mum and dads child hood flings) and I’m not a christen or any other religious follower.So even though I have got freewill I'm not in the best position anyways =(But this also makes me think upon my earlier topic. If he knows our outcome then god would know what my unborn child’s (assuming theres a Mis Logic out-there), child’s overall decision is. How is this even so when there soul has yet to be created?

i know God is, yet i cannot say what God does or does not know. God only knows.i can tell you that i believe he knew the path either way. ie: in the event A =b in the event C=Dlooking at the universe is cause and effect. if wood is wet, not burn by standard flame, if wood is dry, will burn by standards. cause and effect with energies. if in condition A result B.i believe that God knows that even with the choices, overall the result leads to 2+2=4 in the finish, with different variables in the 2+2, but still ending up 2+2=4.do you understand my logic?

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keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Hi Logic,Welcome to EvC, Well it is like this Logic. Adam did put all of his descendants in a bad position (one separated from fellowship with God). But God sent His only begotten Son to buy you back from the from the penalty that Adam sold you into. He offers you a free full pardon from the penalty of that sin so you don't have to spend eternity in the lake of fire.God knew in His foreknowledge you were going to be here today and select my post to answer. He also put me here to tell you that all you have to do is believe in Him and trust His Son for your free full pardon.He also knows your choice. But He is not going to interfere with that choice.You do have free will it is your choice. Do you want to let the lake of fire be your fate. Do you want to change that.It is your choice. That is what free will is.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Well it is like this Logic. Adam did put all of his descendants in a bad position (one separated from fellowship with God).

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No that was God, when he created the universe in a particular way and with particular characteristics - he programs the machine, he knows the outcome of every movement of every atom - things happen in this universe because that's how god has programmed the machine and knows to the most infinite detail how things will happen due to that set of infinitely complete circumstances(which is the result of the programming he's provided).

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But God sent His only begotten Son to buy you back from the from the penalty that Adam sold you into.

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But if your god is all powerful, he can cancel that contract any time he likes - the outsider observer can only conclude he's a sick evil creature who likes pain and suffering (which is why he's set the programming up as he has).Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.

I believe either through God or through self independence I have free-will I don’t deny that.I can also understand the application of cause and effect; he knows the outcome. I'm assuming lets say he knows the outcome from the beginning to the end, which he should being an omnipotent God.He knew the moment he created men, the result of his actions would be an imperfect being.God created Adam and Eve (he knew Adam would take the apple and then sin. God flooded the whole planet leaving Noah to survive yet he knew sin would continue on even after the mass genocide of the human race.
Now God knows my outcome to not become a religious follower but more so understand them.So what I don’t get is how a god knowing everything and passing us free-will can possibly sit idly by knowing that he created a planet that was doomed from the start to harvest more sinners then repent-ers. I may be getting bit off my own topic of free-will here but I see this argument interconnected if god knows our free will choices then he must know how it’s to end.God should have known Adam was going to eat from the tree of knowledge, soA) He didn’t know thus Adam ate from the tree and dammed us all (except the people who repent)
B) He knew and wanted humanity to sin so that we could worship him
C) He knew or didn’t know doesn’t matter but has lost the power to be able to intervene. He once flooded the planet yet he is unable to change anything in modern times . maybe gods not as present as he once was

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He knew the moment he created men, the result of his actions would be an imperfect being.

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But they are only imperfect because he wants them to be that way - if he didn't, he would not build it into the design or provide the means for design to be altered(the snake, the apple, the fall).

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So what I don’t get is how a god knowing everything and passing us free-will can possibly sit idly by knowing that he created a planet that was doomed from the start to harvest more sinners then repent-ers.

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As you mention later - there are only a few options - it never happened (he doesn't exist), he's sick and twisted (by our standards), he's not actually the true god but a minor god who has a playground but doesn't have perfect knowledge of every outcome.

Hehe CK your harsh but true. I was trying to be nice about it by showing them from within there own bible of how it just can't work but man you just go straight for goal 0.o

Hi CK, I don't know what you are all in a lather about. You don't believe any of it anyway.But no He can not cancel the contract. The contract was made with His only begotten Son. If He would pay the debt God the Father would give everyone eternal life who trusted in His Son.Thus the free pardon is there whether you believe in God or not makes no difference.All those who receive the free pardon does not have to suffer the consequences of Adams willful breaking of Gods Rule.So you have the free will to believe in God or not to believe in God.If you believe in God you have the option of trusting His Son for salvation or not trusting Him.That is free will.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Logic, You are entitled to believe anything you desire to believe Logic.Everyone chooses their future by the decisions they make today.You have heard Gods way If you exercise your free will and choose your way when you meet God face to face don't try to tell Him you never heard.Ah the beauty of free will.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes I have heard both sides of the argument, and yes free-will is my own choice the question however is "Is free-will a god given choice or something of a natural cause and effect under no control of a higher entity"I think we can pretty much leave it at that, debating who or how we obtained free choice is pretty much dead. From reading all the above comments no further new input has been added.In conclusion it’s either:1) God gave us free-will and he knows the outcome of everything to have ever existed which invokes unknown mechanics of predetermined outcomes.Or..2) God doesn’t know our choices which would explain - to me at least why there are so many problems within the bible and contradictionsThen again there might be no God at all =)Edited by Logic, : No reason given.

I don't agree. I do agree Not so much damn as create the potential that a man damn himself. Knowing this God put in place a plan which created the potential for God to save man from damning himself.Balance. Finely balanced in fact. If he knows your going to hell it won't be because you were born a bastard. It was that you weren't born again. My last post to you dealt with this general issue. You say "when" and "yet. These are time-bound words. But if there is no "before" and "after" in eternity as we understand it, how would you go about framing this question so as to make it relevant to God's realm

Know where messing with the constraints of time, however there is no need to go that far, I'll make it quite timely simple:GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)See to me God doesn’t seem very omnipotent here, therefore if he’s not omnipotent how can he know outcome of our free-decisions, which cuts it down further1) There is no God
2) Maybe there is God but he’s no more Omnipotent then you or me

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But no He can not cancel the contract.

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So you christian god concept has limitations (well besides not being able to take iron chariots and failing to kill moses when he set out to do it).

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The contract was made with His only begotten Son. If He would pay the debt God the Father would give everyone eternal life who trusted in His Son.

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A suckers contract, the universe exists because of the way he set it up, so sin only exists because he wants it to exist. The contract only exists to emlimate sin that he's ultimately responsible for - it's a mafia style suckers contract "fuck you, pay me".

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All those who receive the free pardon does not have to suffer the consequences of Adams willful breaking of Gods Rule.

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Adam's breaking of the rules is the result of the universe that god set in motion - so it's just another part of the suckers contract.

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If you believe in God you have the option of trusting His Son for salvation or not trusting Him.

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No, there is no free will - I have no choice - god knows every outcome of every variable of the movement of every atom and molecule for all time before he creates time and the universe (as he exists outside of both) - anything that happens is the direct result of how he wanted things to be - he's responsible for this clockwork universe - he's responsible for sin, for Adam falling, for everything - it's a sick sick puppet game.

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I don't know what you are all in a lather about.

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I don't get emotional about such things, the language is deliberately chosen to appeal to lurkers who might be at risk from Christians or others of that ilk - it's makes it easier that the Christian god concept is pretty illogical to start with.Edited by CK, : No reason given.Edited by CK, : No reason given.