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Author | Topic: War and Morality. Al Qaeda v USA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
In todays world, how can we hold individuals or groups of individuals responsible for acts of war against nations? Well in Europe a court in Hag deals with ware crimes and techincly one could call the attack on WTC a ware crime (deliberately targeting civilians). The question is, is this a ware that al kaida started because al kaida is not a nation or country its an organisation. If it is not a ware then they would haveto be tried as any other bomber or mass murderer the problem is that Osama is/was not a us citizen and never stepped on us soil so arresting him in his country is a bit like the english aresting the leader of the bloods in the us and taking him to england for trial. So you would haveto negotiate with their country for a co op capture and a fair trial in his country or an extradition to your country where he can face trial .... The problem was you had an idiot for president who probably though al kaida is just a nother word for Afghanistan , so he wen with his gut reaction and said lets make a glass crater out of them somebody must have told him that the Russians or the Chinese wont be happy if he launches nukes so he did the next best thing all out ware with the "mighty" coalition of the willing.
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
They were flying planes into ships. They didn't care at all if they lived or died, so long as they killed us in the process. Well techicaly the pilots got screwed either way they had a choice and had to sighn what they want to do fly a plane in to a ship for mother japan and the emperor or fly crazy hours till they get shot down. They would die either way the only choice they had is would they die as a national hero or some nameless pilot.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And of course to stay and try to change America.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I love history, can you please site some sources?? not being a smart ass.
"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
fearandloathing writes: I love history, can you please site some sources?? not being a smart ass. Me too, already accepted for grad school again (to obvious relief of some here). The issues brought up in the post you have responded to are worthy of further discussion in another thread. I know what two people (mom also) in the US Navy thought about those bombs and what they meant for overall casualties for both sides, directly. My father, on Okinawa at the time, was heavily involved. Perhaps his survival should (at least from my perspective) be discussed in the existence thread. The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes. Salman Rushdie This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
onifre writes: Dogmafood writes:
No it doesn't. It says the Taliban are responsible for the most human rights violation. But then it goes on to say that that doesn't excuse NATO forces from their responsibility - which is mainly, to concern themselves with the human rights violations, which they have not done. Your own links point out that the Taliban are killing more civilians than anyone else. Yes it does.
quote: Over half was actually over 60%.
I'm not trying to play down the attacks. Fuck 40,000, there were 3,000 and that's enough to be horrifying. But the fact is that Afghanistan, and especially the civilians, had NOTHING-ZERO-NADA to do with those attacks. The men who did died in the attacks. The masterminds should have been brought up on charges and tried in International court. We should not be in Afghanistan AT ALL. So the death toll, while seemingly reasonable to you in a span of 10 years, should be ZERO since there is no reason to be there in the first place. These people want to kill you Oni. All of us because we are not Muslim. Here are some quotes from Mullah Omar, the then leader of Afghanistan.
quote:source and from Mullah Manon Niazi Governor of Mazar-e Sharif speaking to a crowd in a mosque after the fall of mazar city.
quote: source The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Dogma writes: The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen. I am not in principle entirely against some sort of internationally agreed form of intervention where a particular regime is so horrific as to require action. But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan? What ultimately needs to be achieved in order to justify the intervention in the first place?
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0
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F&L and Anglagard,
Of the many items, which particular items on my list do you find dubious? I am thinking at least some of the points were "un-contestable" to moral and intelligent people. I read a particularly good detailed book about the surrender of Japan and "the bomb" many, many years ago. Pity I don't remember the title. But, a lot of info is now on the net if you want more details. See below. In the meantime, I'll try finding the book title.
quote: Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia There was also a great article that chronicled the exaggerated number of american casualties thought to have been lost IF the americans did invade Japan. Surely there would have been some casualities, but not near as many as people erroneously quote these days to soothe their collective guilt. I doubt I could find THAT article, but I'll try. All very interesting. That so many americans "learn" incorrect history (cough, cough, Palin) seems to be uniquely, . . . um . . . american. Europeans participants, ... do your schools teach your nation's ugly past, or do they whitewash like americans. Can you name an example? Here's another good website read:http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm quote: quote: http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm Edited by dronester, : No reason given. Edited by dronester, : No reason given.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan? What ultimately needs to be achieved in order to justify the intervention in the first place? I don’t know. Everyone wearing Nike and a McMohammed’s on every corner? The intervention is justified when the horrific-ness of the regime is abated. Define the objective, gather the willing, gird up the loins and be willing to stick it out knowing full well that it may take generations. It may be that we are just too different to integrate. The most intolerable offences are at the heart of the Taliban ideology. Even moderate sharia law offends most non-muslim people. Of course, the fact that we let our women roam around with their ankles showing is offensive to the Taliban. It is nothing less than a clash of cultures. I certainly don’t know all the answers. I do think that it is unreasonable to vilify the US for it’s behaviour in the war with Afghanistan when 55 other nations also took part. Real countries with real armies and really smart people in positions of authority. How moral is it to abandon them to their fate?
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frako Member (Idle past 336 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
and every one of those 55 countries is looking for an excuse to get their troops back.
Even my country wants their 20 soldiers back
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
I am pretty sure the exaggerated casualty figures were detailed in an article from this book, The Bomb, by Howard Zinn. Will continue to look for it.
quote: http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/hiroshim.htm
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 379 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Even my country wants their 20 soldiers back More loin girding!
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Straggler writes: But how would you see the endpoint of invading Afghanistan? The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
How moral is it to abandon them to their fate? As moral as abandoning all the other countries we've abandoned to their fate. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Over half was actually over 60%. It is still the fault of the US that this is taking place.
These people want to kill you Oni. All of us because we are not Muslim. I'm more frightened of the blacks. Look, I get that they want me dead, but so what? Al Qaeda has less members than any militia here in the US. 13,000 civilians killed to stop such a small force - at the cost of BILLIONS lets not forget - while our economy falls apart, doesn't seem worth it.
The free world should have invaded Afghanistan even if 9/11 didn't happen. The US should have gone into Pakistan and Saudi Arabia i It's where the hijackers where from and where Bin Laden was found, respectively. Afghanistan was one of the worse countries in that area, and since our invasion, has become worse yet. That could have been avoided and Bin Laden still been murdered...errr, I mean killed. - Oni
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