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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
vimesey Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined: |
Can I just clarify something with you please kofh2u - you are presumably aware that the scale on the y-axis of the graph you provided in message 104 is different from the scale on the y-axis of the graph you provided in message 101 by a factor of 10 ? (And yet purports to show (roughly) the same data).
Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That's what I always say but it doesn't seem to get through to the faith-only people. What you believe is evidenced by what you do. Hence, the works are necessary. The belief in God - especially one narrow conception of God - is not.
But believe WHAT? Belief that God exists won't save you. As scripture says even the demons believe that much. WHAT you believe is what matters.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Hi Kofh2u,
You're somehow missing the elephant in the room. Here's your chart:
Notice that the y-axis is in thousands of billions of dollars, which is trillions of dollars. For example, your chart says that in 2008 the welfare budget was roughly $5.5 trillion. That's actually the size of the entire federal budget. The actual figure for 2008 is around $500 billion. So, again, if you want to convince anyone then it would be better to use accurate data that isn't off by about 10 times. Here's a graph of the welfare budget over the past 10 years with projections for the past 2 years:
And here's a graph of the defense budget for the same period:
Using these real figures one can accurately point out that welfare costs have risen dramatically since Obama took office. But aid to families and children is only around $150 billion of the welfare budget at most, nowhere near the size of the defense budget. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They don't rest their salvation ON their works. They realize that people who don't do works don't actually have faith. That's Protestant doctrine, not Roman doctrine, which historically has required works, that is, personal righteousness, as necessary for salvation, and not just faith in Christ. That is, JUSTIFICATION in the sight of God, according to Catholicism, is accomplished by faith in Christ plus your own personal righteousness, but according to Protestantism it is accomplished by faith in the sacrifice of Christ ALONE. The doctrine that faith PRODUCES works is very different from faith-plus-works. But since you have now joined us Protestants in declaring that works are the product of faith and not cause for our justification before God, WELCOME, and you have now also brought yourself under the anathemas of the Council of Trent, which clearly demonstrate that they reject Justification by faith alone, of which I quote only three here:
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. Canon 11.If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema. Canon 12.If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema. He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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As a Protestant I agree with all three of those Canon.
Not all Protestant chapters of Club Christian espouse the easy cop outs.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As I understand it, Catholics will not say that they know for certain that they are saved, in fact there is some idea that it's presumptuous to think that. And they DO add works to the formula, which completely undermines salvation by Christ alone. They will not say that they are saved, because whether their faith in Jesus was enough is not determined by themselves. Similar to other branches of Christianity, that determination about their faith is up to God only. Except that God has actually told us in His word that we can KNOW that we are saved. It's said in many different ways but here's one:
1 John 5:11-13: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE So by leaving it up to God as it were, you are actually disobeying God who has given us ways to test our salvation so that we don't have to spend our lives worrying about whether we are saved or not.
And, as Catholic Scoentist said, the works are you showing your faith in Christ through action. If you believe in Christ and his message to love one another and help one another that naturally leads to acting this love out in the world. Gosh, YOU'RE a Protestant TOO? Both you and Catholic Scientist. Amazing discoveries today. Welcome to you as well! But of course you're wrong, Catholicism does require personal righteousness, i.e. works, FOR salvation and not just as proof of salvation. I just watched this video and I have no idea who these guys are except that they're doing a good job on the subject of Catholic history and belief, and the main speaker is an ex-Catholic which I always figures gives more credibility. The topic is Mary but the first half is a general discussion of the doctrines of Catholicism including justification by faith plus works, and they give a time line for the years when different doctrines were accepted into the Church: Video on Maryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXgxd74Kn9Y&feature=related But really I didn't want to get this far into discussions of doctrine because my main interest is on the history of the conflict between the different systems. I'm going to try to inch back toward that focus.
But again the main tenets are extremely similar between the two branches of Christianity, correct? If they are not, please provide me some examples. I'd rather just emphasize the fact that historically both bodies have regarded the other as EXTREMELY wrong, not at all "extremely similar" and to the extent that Protestantism regarded Rome as the seat of the Antichrist, that's not just a little schism between "two branches of Christianity," that's a complete and utter rejection of Rome as not Christian at all. (Again, this is not about individual Catholics who may be saved in some cases, this is about the institution of the papacy and the hierarchy of Rome) And yes, again, it works both ways, as Rome has anathemized Protestantism as thoroughly as Protestantism has anathematized Rome. Here's a page listing a huge number, including some Catholics but of course all the main Protestant Reformers, who recognized the papacy as Antichrist. Go all the way down the page, it's quite a list:http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm This is no little dispute over doctrine, but the differences in doctrine in the eyes of Protestants at least are enormous. (to Rome as well except in recent years they are trying to woo us "back to Mother" so they are downplaying their anathemas and official position that they have the right to kill heretics and so on).
Catholics do not pray to saints, but rather through Saints. They are asking one who the church states was loved by God to intercede on their behalf to God. They are not expecting the Saint or Mary to actually help (at least in the correct theology), but rather that their word to God will help God to act. Yes, Tempe, I've heard that but it's just typical jesuitical rationalization of idolatry. Merely to "ask" anything of a mere human being who has died and resides presumably in heaven is to pray. That's what prayer IS, Tempe. It doesn't matter what you are asking FOR, that's just an attempt to get around the fact that you are praying to a human being. And I'm sure you know that there are many ordinary Catholics who take it a lot further than the official limits you are acknowledging. People in Medjugorge for just one instance have been shown scooting around a statue of Mary on their knees crying and beseeching her for who knows what. That's worship and that's prayer and nobody tries to stop them, and you KNOW they are asking for all kinds of things of "her" that they should ask only of God Himself directly. All that is extreme idolatry, derived from paganism. Nope, LOTS more than "slight differences" between Protestantism and Catholicism. Megashift there, Tempe. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That's not god saying anything Faith, it is the author of John making a claim.
It's interesting to see how the various claims evolved as Christianity was marketed and John was na major revisionist.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So you think asking a DEAD person to pray for you is not idolatry, is not treating that dead person as a god who can hesr prayer although only God Himself is said in scripture to be the hearer prayer, which is what makes it blasphemy.
But again, this is all doctrine, and I'd rather keep the focus on the simple fact that historically both sides have regarded the other as SERIOUSLY in the wrong. It's only in recent years when Rome has been making great gestures of conciliation to us "separated brethren" that they used to anathematize as heretics deserving of death that some Protestants have lost their sense of history and started following the papal pied piper. He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Believe whatever you want, jar, I'm describing what historical Protestantism has taught and still teaches and it sure isn't anything like your twisted made-up stuff.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, prayer hankies are false doctrine too as is the whole Prosperity Gospel doctrine and really just about the entire TV evangelism enterprise. False doctrine everywhere these days. That's no more Protestantism than Rome is.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course the Roman Catholic Church is not Protestant but the evangelists are Protestants. In fact most of the US genocide was done by Protestants, probably the most effective and efficient example of genocide in all of history.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK jar, provide the evidence for that outrageous lie.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Who ran the Indian Schools?
Who forbade Indian Children from speaking their language, wearing their hair uncut, worshiping their religion, wearing their clothes? Who stole their lands, killed off their food supply, pushed them onto reservations? The mostly Protestant Christians taught the world how best to commit genocide in an efficient and socially acceptable manner.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK you're going to make a whole cultural thing into "Protestantism" and effects on culture into "genocide" and there's nothing about this that has to do with Protestant belief as such, you don't even know if the people involved were Protestants in any sense of the word. This is just a typical jar type accusation and rabbit trail, nothing to do with the topic of the historical conflict between Romanism and Protestantism.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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This is just a typical jar type accusation and rabbit trail, nothing to do with the topic of the historical conflict between Romanism and Protestantism. Actually it has everything to do with it. If you want to run away from the facts and practice historical revisionism that is your choice. Just don't get upset when others call you out on it.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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