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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
For better or worse, everyone's each allowed many messages again.
AdminnemooseusOr something like that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This is an interesting article I read a while back that might help to orient this thread in a somewhat less contentious direction. Maybe.
Catholics take offense at their religion being criticized (although it's odd that nobody here cares a bit that my religion is attacked all the time but anyway), but often the main critics of the power structure of Catholicism, Rome, the Vatican, are Catholics themselves, and often priests. You'll find Jesuits outing the horrific plots of the Jesuits too. (Of course by then they're usually ex-Jesuits, and sometimes soon after, dead as well). Anyway, this is an article that appeared a while back in The Irish Times, written by a retired priest retired from San Antonio, Texas, back to his native Ireland. It might be easier take from him than from me, a rabid Protestant.
Faithful should distinguish between Catholic faith and Vatican state Current Catholic justice has its origin in the Roman Inquisition founded by pope Gregory IX in 1232, which ushered in one of the most shameful episodes in all of human history. It formalised the practices of killing, burning or imprisoning heretics. Modified over time, it still exists under a changed name (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), but its rules owe much to its history and very little to contemporary standards of justice. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was its head for a quarter of a century before he became pope in 2005. In its mode of operation the suspect gets very little information. There is no independent judge, prosecutor or jury. An unknown defender is appointed from within the system. The accused is denied access to all documents related to the charge. All who take part in the trial are bound to secrecy, and there is no right of appeal. Recently, Pope Benedict on his visit to Cuba pleaded for freedom for the Catholic Church there, but freedom within the church is a different matter. At the time of the unification of Italy in 1870 the papal states stretched from Rome across to the Adriatic Sea and north to the river Po. Jesus Christ might have said my kingdom is not of this world, but Pius 1X ordered a military defence of the papal states, shedding the blood of many, including Irish soldiers recruited by the Irish bishops, precisely because he could not function as vicar of Christ unless he had an earthly kingdom. After unification, the new Italian parliament guaranteed the independence of the Holy See and offered compensation for lost territories, but Pius IX rejected the offer. In 1929 the Vatican state was set up by agreement between Mussolini and pope Pius XI, and Italy compensated it for the lost papal states. The bishops of the second Vatican Council (1962-1965) proclaimed the church as the people of God, but failed to address the paradox inherited from Vatican I in 1870. At that time Pius IX persuaded the council to declare that the pope has supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the church and he can always freely exercise this power (canon 313 of the current code of canon law). This contradicts the model of church in the Acts of the Apostles. So the ideals embodied in Vatican II have been essentially sidelined in the subsequent years because, as an English commentator recently noted, the Vatican is the sole remaining absolute monarchy in Europe. Even the college of bishops is cut off because absolute power is vested in one office only, the papacy. Lord Acton said power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A convert to Catholicism, he was writing about the papacy. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes:
Catholics take offense at their religion being criticized (although it's odd that nobody here cares a bit that my religion is attacked all the time but anyway),... Every religion takes offence at being criticised and the idea that Catholicism is free from criticism here is laughable, but anyway.... People are attacking your beliefs not your religion. The best I can say for the Catholics is that they've had the good political sense to change their minds on what they believe as science discovers how things work in the world. They don't do it quickly or willingly, but they don't hang on hopelessly forever trying to make untruths, true making themselves look ridiculous in the process the way you do. In other words they're not totally bonkers, just mostly.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What do you think of what the priest had to say?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: What do you think of what the priest had to say? About what? I think the priest is probably as mad as the Vatican and all therein.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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The Bible does not ever contradict itself. What!? I mean, one of the points of Jesus coming here was to tell us that the whole Letter of the Law thing was not as important as the Spirit of the Law. His ministry pretty much contradicted the whole Old Testament. And its not hard to find specific examples if you look for them: On one hand we have "an eye for an eye" and on the other we have "turn the other cheek". In Gen 1 animals are made before man but in Gen 2 man is made before animals. And there's the famous "who was in the empty tomb" debacle. Now, even if you want to interpret those contradictions away; that's just your interpretation. The contradictions are still there as plainly written.
It never ever says that works are needed FOR salvation, it ALWAYS says they are the FRUIT of salvation, which is NOT what Rome says. What makes you think that? Not everything you've learned is in fact true. Further, I've directly quoted "Rome" saying that salvation comes from the Grace of God. You replied that it didn't really make sense to you, yet here you are, making claims about what it says. So does it make sense or not? And how are you getting it so wrong?
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Do you know what "ordinary power" is?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
nobody here cares a bit that my religion is attacked all the time but anyway
Please provide the examples.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Right and the highest degree of bias and the most unsupported assertions here have been yours, jars and Theodoric's with some runners-up. I'm right here. If there's anything I've said that you feel is not such common knowledge as to require documentation, you have only to ask me.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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So I read over this thread and have come to this conclusion.
Faith believes that the Holy Roman Catholic Church is 1. Evil2. a Hitler sympathizer 3. murderers 4. corrupt 5. wanting to take over all of Europe 6. worships the Pope and Mary but not God 7. The Protestants practice the one true faith Anything anyone says to go against these points are merely repeating propaganda and are blinded by the Roman Catholic churches coverups and nefarious plan. Does this sum up the thread so far? "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
All but #7; it seems that not all Protestants are Protestants and only some Protestants practice the one true faith while those other Protestants practice the wrong true faith and Protestant genocide is not genocide.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Thanks for the clarity. Duly noted.
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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I don't understand why Faith can't see that any group, religious or otherwise, will always make up demonizations about competing groups. The Catholics do it to the Protestants who both do it to the Muslims who do it to the Jews and so forth.
In particular, neither Catholicism nor Protestantism is wrong because of past atrocities, which are merely what people do to other people using whatever excuse is convenient. Religion, race and nationality have been popular excuses since the beginning of time. The shared Protestant and Catholic belief in the sanctity of Christ dwarfs all differences. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That's the politically correct view, and I more or less subscribed to it myself until I began to find evidence along the lines this thread was supposed to be about.
But I can see there's no point. I thought this thread might be a way to get my information organized for my own blog and in a way it has been. I think I'll continue my thoughts there. Thanks.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Percy writes: The shared Protestant and Catholic belief in the sanctity of Christ dwarfs all differences. That's what the theory says, but practice proves it's wrong. All the evidence is that the more fundamental the believers are, the more likely they are to hate other believers. Faith can't find a fault in her personal interpretation of her particular flavour of bible but can find shed loads of fault in other Christians' beliefs. And she doesn't even consider non-Christian beliefs as remotely relevant to any conversation - not even worthy of a comment, simply shunned.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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