|
Author
|
Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
Message 376 of 1000 (683859)
12-14-2012 4:41 AM
|
Reply to: Message 372 by Faith
12-14-2012 4:30 AM
|
|
Re: I think I get what Faith is saying, maybe...
quote:
I did NOT say it has to be interpreted in one particular way, I said it isn't a Protestant interpretation if it is used to do what jar did with it, cause it to support the claims of Rome.
Not true, as I showed above. Message 350 quote:
Some interpret the rock to refer to Christ Himself, some to Peter's testimony and some do interpret it as referring to Peter but even when they do they don't suggest he had any kind of preeminence among the apostles in the characteristic he demonstrated by that testimony. He was first in some ways but not ABOVE the others in any ways.
I would think that being singled out especially, by being given a new name is a pretty good indication to the contrary.
quote:
Here's one commentary, JF&B for Mat 16:18 at BLB, that makes this point, showing that all the apostles received the same commissioning from Jesus even if Peter was the first to make the testimony:
But it doesn't address the issue of Peter having a favoured status among the Apostles.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by Faith, posted 12-14-2012 4:30 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 377 of 1000 (683860)
12-14-2012 4:50 AM
|
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
12-14-2012 4:33 AM
|
|
Re: JAR is no Protestant, Get a Clue
quote:
I'm tired of how you keep shifting the argument. I don't know what YOU are arguing about but I've given my reasons quite consistently all along here. Sometimes the solas are the subject, sometimes it's the simple fact that jar agrees with a Catholic interpretaton of scripture.
But I'm not shifting the argument. I've been consistently pointing out your insistence on authority and tradition dictating interpretation of the Bible for some time.
quote:
I do hate the "experts" who lie about the supernatural basis of the Bible, I do indeed. They are the liars. The Bible is the supernatural word of God and they are unable to recognize that fact, being unbelievers, and too many Christians have bought into their lousy excuse for scholarship.
And a lot of them are believers. They just disagree with the beliefs you cling to. Obviously you don't really regard expertise as something to be recognised and taken into account.
quote:
I'm tired of this discussion, I'm tired of your nasty endlessly accusatory attitude and I hope I can call this post the end of it.
Yet what I am doing is both milder and more justified than your treatment of those who disagree with your dogmas.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 374 by Faith, posted 12-14-2012 4:33 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
Percy
Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 5.4
|
|
|
Message 378 of 1000 (683864)
12-14-2012 7:43 AM
|
Reply to: Message 365 by Faith
12-13-2012 11:44 PM
|
|
Re: Moving on?
Faith writes: I do think that this whole side issue about who is a Protestant isn't as irrelevant as you are saying because it's all about the topic I was trying so hard to keep in focus -- WHAT Protestantism is. I boiled it down to its essentials, referred to sources, repeated it many times so it wouldn't get lost etc etc and it was still hard to keep it in focus. I really did have the idea that surely people here would be up on the history of these things so I wouldn't have to work so hard but I was wrong. Here's another way to look at it. In any group of participants there will be outliers, those whose opinions or beliefs or approach to discussion or mode of expression is sufficiently different from your own that reaching a meeting of the minds isn't likely. You can waste entire threads seeking common ground. Make your position on the side issues clear, then return to the main topic. Don't mistake those responding most often or objecting most vociferously for your main audience. At the level of discussion of this thread, which is not about defining Protestantism, this quote from Wikipedia should be a sufficient identification of what Protestantism is:
Wikipedia writes: Fundamental principles The three fundamental principles of traditional Protestantism are the following:
- Scripture Alone
The belief in the Bible as the supreme source of authority for the church. The early churches of the Reformation believed in a critical, yet serious, reading of Scripture and holding the Bible as a source of authority higher than that of Church Tradition. The many abuses that had occurred in the Western Church prior to the Protestant Reformation led the Reformers to reject much of the Tradition of the Western Church, though some would maintain Tradition has been maintained and reorganized in the liturgy and in the confessions of the Protestant Churches of the Reformation. In the early 20th century there developed a less critical reading of the Bible in the United States that has led to a "fundamentalist" reading of Scripture. Christian Fundamentalists read the Bible as the "inerrant, infallible" Word of God, as do the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican churches, to name a few, but interpret it in a more literal way.
- Justification by Faith Alone
The subjective principle of the Reformation is justification by faith alone, or, rather, by free grace through faith. It has reference to the personal appropriation of the Christian salvation, and aims to give all glory to Christ, by declaring that the sinner is justified before God (i.e., is acquitted of guilt, and declared righteous) solely on the ground of the all-sufficient merits of Christ as apprehended by a living faith, in opposition to the theory then prevalent, and substantially sanctioned by the Council of Trent which makes faith and good works co-ordinate sources of justification, laying the chief stress upon works. Protestantism does not depreciate good works; but it denies their value as sources or conditions of justification, and insists on them as the necessary fruits of faith, and evidence of justification."
- Universal Priesthood of Believers
The universal priesthood of believers implies the right and duty of the Christian laity not only to read the Bible in the vernacular, but also to take part in the government and all the public affairs of the Church. It is opposed to the hierarchical system which puts the essence and authority of the Church in an exclusive priesthood, and makes ordained priests the necessary mediators between God and the people.
Even people with reservations about this definition should find it sufficient for discussing Catholicism versus Protestantism. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by Faith, posted 12-13-2012 11:44 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 379 of 1000 (683873)
12-14-2012 8:56 AM
|
Reply to: Message 373 by Phat
12-14-2012 4:30 AM
|
|
Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
I have no idea what God would decide after the judgement.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 373 by Phat, posted 12-14-2012 4:30 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 380 by Phat, posted 12-14-2012 9:12 AM | | jar has replied |
|
Phat
Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
|
|
|
Message 380 of 1000 (683875)
12-14-2012 9:12 AM
|
Reply to: Message 379 by jar
12-14-2012 8:56 AM
|
|
Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
I have no idea what God would decide after the judgement. Some of us believe very strongly that we are in communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen through communion with His Spirit. Have you never felt this way?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 379 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 8:56 AM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 381 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 9:14 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 381 of 1000 (683877)
12-14-2012 9:14 AM
|
Reply to: Message 380 by Phat
12-14-2012 9:12 AM
|
|
Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
I have no idea. Please explain how you know you are in communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen through communion with His Spirit and that it is not simply a bad burrito? What does that have to do with the topic?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 380 by Phat, posted 12-14-2012 9:12 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
|
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
|
|
|
Message 382 of 1000 (683998)
12-14-2012 8:56 PM
|
Reply to: Message 376 by PaulK
12-14-2012 4:41 AM
|
|
Re: I think I get what Faith is saying, maybe...
I would think that being singled out especially, by being given a new name is a pretty good indication to the contrary. I don't think he was given a new name. The most obvious reading of Matthew 4 is that Peter was already his nickname: "Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 376 by PaulK, posted 12-14-2012 4:41 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 383 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2012 2:41 AM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
Re: I think I get what Faith is saying, maybe...
It could be taken that way, but it could also mean that Peter was the name by which the reader would be expected to know him. Fortunately Mark 3:16 makes it clearer:
And He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter)
(Luke 6:14 agrees. John 1:42 puts the naming earlier, but still credits Jesus)
|
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
|
|
|
Message 384 of 1000 (684026)
12-15-2012 3:35 AM
|
Reply to: Message 383 by PaulK
12-15-2012 2:41 AM
|
|
Simon Called Peter.
OK. Thank you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 383 by PaulK, posted 12-15-2012 2:41 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
|
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 385 of 1000 (685471)
12-23-2012 5:13 AM
|
|
|
Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
I don't remember where I brought up how Protestantism was the source of Capitalism, maybe the Rabbit Trail thread, but the subject clearly belongs here anyway. Turns out that Catholicism has now come out in the open and said as much themselves, condemning it of course and in the process revealing that they support socialism, which is interesting as I've been discovering that myself. I just didn't think they'd admit it. But I guess they are emboldened by what seems to be a great wave of popularity for socialism. Anyway, here's a book by a Catholic writer denouncing Capitalism as the invention of Protestantism Catholicism, Protestantism and Capitalism which the author describes as inimical to the gospel of Jesus Christ because it supposedly fosters "greed." (put "greed" in the search box for the book at Amazon) Sure sounds like the sort of argument you'd find at EvC so I'm sure you'll all now be very friendly to Rome for sharing your economic vision. JAR has already embraced some major Catholic doctrines, it's just a step or two now to give up the fiction of being a Protestant. The Vatican has also come out and endorsed evolution. Should just warm the cockles of your EvC hearts to now have this religion on your side. I didn't know any of this until quite recently, I would never have thought of attributing Marxism to Rome but even that looks like it has its roots there, nor of attributing Capitalism to Protestantism either although I had heard of Max Weber's study. I didn't know what he had to say about it except something about the Protestant Ethic. Well, I've been finding out much more recently and am convinced that Protestantism is THE reason the West has prospered so in the last few hundred years and that Capitalism grew out of its principles of thrift, investment and self denial (far from greed) and is the great wealth-producer that brought it all about. I've run across many studies showing how Protestant countries thrived and prospered while Catholic countries sank into poverty due to a difference in ethic. Interesting now to find out that Rome hates Capitalism and loves socialism. There's evidence I can dig up for all this but I wanted to sketch out the main outlines first. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
|
petrophysics1
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 386 of 1000 (685536)
12-23-2012 1:39 PM
|
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
12-23-2012 5:13 AM
|
|
Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
faith writes: Anyway, here's a book by a Catholic writer denouncing Capitalism as the invention of Protestantism Catholicism, Protestantism and Capitalism which the author describes as inimical to the gospel of Jesus Christ because it supposedly fosters "greed." (put "greed" in the search box for the book at Amazon) A strawman, the book cited does not have "Imprimatur" which means it is neither approved or sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Just some screwball's opinion. It would be like me pointing out that the antisemite Luther, Jim Jones, Joe Smith and Faith are all Protestants so Protestantism is a religion of bigots, crazies, delusional people who get gold tablets from angels, and ignorant people who give religion, conservatism, gun ownership and the practice of geology a bad reputation. What sect of Protestantism are you a member of? I need to know as in 63 years I've never run across a Protestant who had so many illogical ideas totally unconnected to reality. Edited by petrophysics1, : typos
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 385 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 5:13 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 387 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 5:48 PM | | petrophysics1 has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
The Catholic site that sells that book sells another half dozen on the same theme. The socialism goes back at least to Aquinas. Does the RC Church bother with imprimaturs any more? But I first encountered this idea in a book by a PROTESTANT, who quotes a lot of Catholic writings.
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 388 of 1000 (685561)
12-23-2012 6:10 PM
|
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
12-23-2012 5:48 PM
|
|
Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Actually, socialism and communism go back at least to Jesus and the disciples. And one of the things Luther was concerned about and stressed in his 95 Thesis was Roman Catholic Capitalism.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 387 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 5:48 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 389 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 6:23 PM | | jar has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 389 of 1000 (685564)
12-23-2012 6:23 PM
|
Reply to: Message 388 by jar
12-23-2012 6:10 PM
|
|
Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
I definitely need evidence for that remark about Luther. Where's your link?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 388 by jar, posted 12-23-2012 6:10 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 390 by jar, posted 12-23-2012 6:30 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 390 of 1000 (685566)
12-23-2012 6:30 PM
|
Reply to: Message 389 by Faith
12-23-2012 6:23 PM
|
|
Re: Rome Against Protestantism's Capitalism
Just like the Bible, you have never read the 95 Thesis either have you Faith? What was Luther referencing in the 95 Thesis is not the capitalism of selling Indulgences?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 389 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 6:23 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 391 by Faith, posted 12-23-2012 6:31 PM | | jar has replied |
|
™ Version 4.2