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Author | Topic: Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
marriage is a Creation Ordinance, established at the Creation.
Can I get a copy of that?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
No, it's not in the Mosaic Law, marriage is a Creation Ordinance, established at the Creation. But without telling anyone not to have multiple wives and concubines. I mean, it's something he could have mentioned, isn't it?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They were taught the Creation Ordinances, which were after all written down by Moses.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's Genesis 2:24, you can make your own copy.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3941 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Doesn't occur to you that this was a mercy to the victims, who would otherwise be abandoned to a horrible fate, does it? Lets just think about the things God could have said instead: 1. If your daughter is raped, don't consider her worthless as though she is now a used up commodity. 2. Men who would rape women should be punished with more than just a fine to cover the "cost" to the girls father. 3. In general, victims of crimes shouldn't be punished worse than their assailants. In fact, they shouldn't' be punished at all! You speak of MERCY Faith? Really? And yet at the moment that God is speaking most directly to humanity he can only offer an improvement of one half-step to the stone age morality that would have otherwise killed an innocent human being for the crime of being a victim? Is this your beloved "tradition"? Why don't we do the same today? Are we lost to our corruption?If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
They were taught the Creation Ordinances, which were after all written down by Moses. They were not taught that polygamy or concubinage were sinful, were they? They were taught that it was sinful to wear mixed fabric, and to eat lobsters (but not locusts), and to interplant two kinds of crops, but somehow not a sanction, not a mention, not a whisper, against polygamy, or concubinage ... or pedophilia ...
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sure they were taught it. The Books of Moses were read to the people, so they couldn't miss it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Well where is it? Genesis 2:24 doesn't say that polygamy is sinful. The polygamy of the patriarchs isn't condemned. Surely the actual message of Genesis is to condone polygamy, not condemn it.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
God blessed Abe even though he was a polygamist. That was also true for most of the Patriarch and for other characters like King David. I misrepresented nothing. Hagar left. God sent her back. It really is that simple. Further, when a man bought a wife, whether it was the first wife or the thousandth wife, she left her family and went with him, just like the goats he bought, the camels he bought, the cattle he bought. They became one flesh. And the one flesh did not refer to procreation or having kids. Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile. God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
Abraham had only Sarah at that point, there was no third wife, and Hagar was sent back to Sarah so there is no reason to suppose that she went back as Abraham's wife. A clue might be that she had no other children, only Ishmael.
That was also true for most of the Patriarch and for other characters like King David. I misrepresented nothing.God blessed Abe even though he was a polygamist. Yes, God blessed many sinners, but they were still sinners, blessed because of their faith in God. Solomon was the worst but God blessed him greatly too. Yet God didn't just overlook the sin. It was only after Solomon's reign that the consequence of his sin came as judgment against the nation.
Hagar left. God sent her back. It really is that simple. Hardly. You did misrepresent what I pointed out that you misrepresented. She didn't go back to "Abe" as you claimed, and even going back to Sarah probably did not mean she went back as his wife. You implied that Sarah mistreated her without cause when it was Hagar's disrespect of her that was the cause. And you said God commanded polygamy which is untrue.
Further, when a man bought a wife, whether it was the first wife or the thousandth wife, she left her family and went with him, just like the goats he bought, the camels he bought, the cattle he bought. They became one flesh. And the one flesh did not refer to procreation or having kids. Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile. One flesh is ultimately expressed in children but it exists without children. And what's the point you are making about wives and cattle? Abraham bought no wives. Where is that in scripture? Hagar was his wife's maidservant and it was his wife who gave her to him in order to have a child.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy. Nor other sins. The "problem" isn't seen until the judgment against them comes, down the road a way. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How is Hagar not having more children (something we don't know anyway) a sign she was not one of Abe's wives?
Faith writes: Yes, God blessed many sinners, but they were still sinners, blessed because of their faith in God. Solomon was the worst but God blessed him greatly too. Yet God didn't just overlook the sin. It was only after Solomon's reign that the consequence of his sin came as judgment against the nation. So once again you try to sell an evil God who punishes others for sins they did not commit. Got it. And Hagar did go back to Abe. Sara was Abe's property.
Faith writes: One flesh is ultimately expressed in children but it exists without children. And what's the point you are making about wives and cattle? Abraham bought no wives. Where is that in scripture? Hagar was his wife's maidservant and it was his wife who gave her to him in order to have a child. Sorry but that is nothing but nonsense. One flesh is expressed in children even if there are no children? Bullshit. And you still have not shown a single example of God objecting to polygamy or suggesting monogamy or even objecting to screwing out of marriage.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sara is never described as Abraham's property nor treated as if she were Abraham's property. He always treats her with respect as his wife.
And yes we don't know for sure whether Hagar went back as Abraham's wife but her not having more children is a good sign she may not have. She was in Sarah's hands, not Abraham's, as Abraham said. There was only the one reason for her to be his wife in the first place, to have the child she did have.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So Sara who was infertile and Hagar were both Abe's wives.
And as to wives being property I hope you don't want to claim that that is not how the Bible describes them or treats them? And you still have not shown a single example of God objecting to polygamy. And thank God we are moving towards Christian Gay Marriage and further and further away from Christian Law.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives. The text in Genesis 16:6-10 does not agree with your interpretation. Faith's seems to be more faithful to the text. Hagar was sent back to submit to Sarai who clearly did not want Hagar anywhere near her husband anymore. Abram had also yielded control of Hagar to Sarai before Hagar left. I think there is a clear implication that Hagar was not going to be treated like a wife anymore. Genesis 16:6-10
quote: Not that it makes Hagar's treatment was any less despicable, but it seems clear that she was out of the second wife business. Not only was she under Sarai, but even afterwards, both she and her soon were booted out of the house. You can of course argue that I am reading somethings in between the lines that are not explicitly there, but let me suggest that your interpretation requires reading in opposite things that are against what the text actually says.
Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile. Yes, but apparently God fixed that up in the very next Chapter which I would think undercuts your point a bit.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy. Perhaps not, but the particular argument you've chosen is not all that great.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I think it is certainly sufficient considering that no where in the Bible have I found God objecting to polygamy, and that is the point.
It is irrelevant to the topic though. God's views on marriage are totally irrelevant to the issue of same sex marriage in the US.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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