Importance of Original Sin

What deals with that part of us which is the enemy is the cross.After Jesus turned to Peter and rebuked Satan, Jesus then spoke of the need for the disciples to pick up their cross and deny themselves to follow Christ.

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"Then Jesus said to Peter ..."

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Who is Jesus speaking to? It is His arguably leading disciples - Peter..
What he speaks toward Peter is AIMED at the one working IN Peter - Satan, the enemy of God and man.

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"Then Jesus said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men."

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This is a little complex. Jesus is saying to Peter yet rebuking the enemy lurking in Peter's sympathetic opinion. Peter, is offering his opinion that Jesus should pity Himself and not go to the cross. Peter thinks God would forbid that to ever happen.Jesus, vehement with determination to fulfill the purpose of His Father, detects the subtlety of the enemy Satan crouching behind Peter's good hearted opinion. Jesus says that Satan is setting his mind NOT on the things of God, but on the things of men.

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"But He turned and said to PETER, Get behind Me SATAN! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.

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Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

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For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it; but whoever loses his soul-life for My sake shall find it." (Matt. 16:24-26)

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To take up the cross to follow Jesus is to enjoy Jesus at the expense of denying the enjoyment of the soul-life. That is the Adamic SELF. Either we follow our self or we follow Jesus. If we follow our soul life then we save our own soul-life. To do this is to lose it in the end.To lose the soul-life today while following Jesus is to be prepared to find it in the end. This is the cross which deals with the enemy lodging in the self. This is the cross which terminates the enemy Satan hiding out in the self which sets its mind not on the things of God, but on the things of men.This is why many people draw back in fear at the thought of entrusting their lives to Jesus Christ. The enemy within them, Satan, knows that to follow Jesus will mean the cross to himself. And he injects this fear into the minds of men.But the cross is a grand release. The cross is a breaking of chains and a freeing of prisoners. It is to open the bars of the prison to allow the captive to go free into the enjoyment of the Triune God.So a deepening trust and enjoyment of Jesus Christ is simultaneously a deeper application of the self terminating cross. And the self terminating cross strips away Satan from the soul, renders him defeated, nullified, paralyzed, crossed out. There are actually FOUR falls in the book of Genesis. When we Christians speak of "the fall" we mean the downward collapse of Adam's world because of his sin.But some of us see FOUR major such falls in Genesis so that man fell by successive degrees away from God. The first fall was when Adam and his wife ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sin and death entered into them. And it propogated into all of their descendents.The other three continued falls are after this initial one. Quote me where I said we are not responsible for our sins.Your next post will demonstrate whether you are telling the truth or are writing a sly distortion of the dishonest sort.I expect your next post to be a quotation of me writing that I or any other sinner is not responsible for his own sins (plural).And if you do not produce the evidence of your charge then I expect that you will probably never apologize for your ad-hom of "weasel" applied to me. And we will see if you have the decency to retract a false charge.Your quotation?
And we will see who the weasel is.What post has the quotation of me writing that I, nor you, nor any other sinner is not responsible for their sins ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think you're demonstrating my point rather than yours. Jesus, in no uncertain terms, told us to do rather that feel with respect to our fellow man, and truth is easily found in Matthew by anyone who cares to look and not tell us that it does not apply to gentiles.

I am not sure what you mean about "anyone who cares to look and not tell us that it does not apply to gentiles."If you mean the teaching of Christ from Matthew 5:1 through 7:29, we are told who the audiences is, His disciples.

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"And great crowds followed Him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. (4:25)

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And when He saw the crowds, He went up to the mountain. And after He sat down, His DISCIPLES came to Him.

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And opening His mouth, He taught them, saying ..." (5:1,2a)

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(my emphasis)I believe that the teaching is for the disciples of Jesus Christ down through the entire church age.These first disciples were Jews and some of the things taught reflect a cultural backround applicable to them as members of the theocratic nation of Israel.But I am not a Jew but a follower of Jesus from the Gentiles. And I think the teaching is for me as for any disciple of Jesus.His disciples still come to Him and He still through the Scripture opens His mouth to speak to us.Because of the Jewish backround of the disciples at that time Jesus does draw a contrast between them and the Gentiles occasionally. Two examples below:

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And in praying do not babble empty words as the Gentiles do; for they suppose that in their multiplicity of words they will be heard. (Matt. 6:7)

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Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, With what shall we be clothed? For all these things the Gentiles are anxiously seeking. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. (6:31,32)

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I do not use these passages to prove that the teaching is not for disciples from the Gentiles. I think they only reveal that at that time His disciples were mainly from the Jewish people of the theocratic nation of Israel, for whom such a way of THEIR Messiah speaking, is understandable.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I refer to the same teaching that has been pointed out several times in this thread; Matthew 25. I've already seen your posts interpreting that scripture.You don't seem to read posts any better than you read the Bible or Origin of Species. You can have the last word if you like, but I find discussions with you way too difficult.

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I refer to the same teaching that has been pointed out several times in this thread; Matthew 25. I've already seen your posts interpreting that scripture.
  —Nonukes

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I don't mind anyone being inspired by Matthew 25:31-46 to be charitable.What some people seem to fail to realize is that it is a prophecy. "WHEN" is a word which some readers seem not to grasp any significance to.

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But WHEN the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels of God with Him, at that time ..."

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Some readers simply think of this only to mean some future judgment. Others of us pay attention to the times and circumstances mentioned in relation to this "WHEN" and to this "AT THAT TIME".And for this Revelation is important backround to understand the prophecy.But if someone is inspired that the teaching warns them not to take for granted the poor, the naked, the imprisioned, the hungry, the sick ... I have no objection to this. I thought of the passage recently myself in relation to hungry children I feel to support again.My only problem would be with someone attempting to nullify much of the rest of the New Testament with Matthew 25:31-46 as a rationale.And your going away in a huff with some parting insults just comes with the territory.

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"Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against you because of Me.

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Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matt. 5:11,12)

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Following Jesus is not some woo-woo "enjoyment". The imagery of the cross makes it plain that enjoyment is not involved. Following Jesus is hard work, often painful, sometimes dangerous. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it," has the same meaning as Matthew 25. But of course the Bible says no such thing. You keep avoiding the question. You seem to exclude yourself from the judgement in Matthew 25. What other conclusion can there be? I stand by the statement that you are trying to weasel yourself out of the judgement in Matthew 25. Let's see if you have the decency to answer the question that I've asked several times: Are you among the sheep and goats? Are you not claiming that God will judge you differently from the sheep and the goats?

There are no "times and circumstances" mentioned in Matthew 25. You've written in a connection to the Revelation that doesn't exist in the text. "When" refers to the time when God will judge all nations.The sheep and goats are obviously not literal sheep and goats so the story should not be taken too literally. It is a general description of God's principles of judgement, not some "prophecy" of a specific event.

Just out of curiosity, why have a certain group of people formed virtually an entire religious hypothesis around Matthew 25?

Are you neglecting the fact that the 'hypothesis' is based on a direct quote of Jesus' words or that it is supported by other parts of the Bible?I find your question nothing short of dishonest. I expect that kind of 'dispensing' with the truth from some posters, but I had thought better of you.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Matthew 25 is just one example Phat, Matthew 7 says much the same as do many other parts of the Bible. Rather you should be asking why certain people formed virtually an entire religious hypothesis around taking unrelated verses out of context and trying to use them to interpret other parts of the Bible to mean something other than was is actually written.

This poor man wants to be a teacher of the Christian faith and doesn't even know what the enjoyment of God is. Poor ringo.The enjoyment of God is verses the drudgery of religious duty. And it enjoyment could well be a synonymous word of "grace." This grace is like power steering. It is having Christ as life enable, empower, and supply the believer with divine life energy. And it is an enjoyment to have Christ live in us.Enjoyment of God - "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and JOY in the Holy Spirit." (Romans 14:17) More Enjoyment of God - "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissolution, but be filled in spirit speaking to one another in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and psalming with your heart to the Lord." (Eph.4:18,19) More Enjoyment of God - "Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength." (Eph. 6:10) More Enjoyment of God in the midst of great difficulty - "For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your peitition and the BOUNTIFUL supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." ( Phil. 1:19 ) Deeper Enjoyment of Christ as life - "I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20) All these passages and hundreds more speak of the enjoyment of the practical salvation of having Jesus Christ live in us, empowering us, enabling us, enduring in us, reacting righteously in us, expressing God from within us. The joy of the Lord is our strength. (Psalm 28:7; Nehemiah 8:9)Poor, poor religious bondage to duty.

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"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, bothers. Amen." (Gal. 6:18)

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This is the enjoyment of experiencing Christ as everything to the believer from deep within the innermost being.

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"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)

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Have pity on those with no experience but only dubious head knowledge, and that quite often incorrect. The grace with the believer's spirit is the enjoyment of Christ as life in her spirit.Isaac in the Old Testament means laughter. And Isaac was a symbol of the grace of God unto Abraham.

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"Grace be with you" (Col. 4:18)

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This is the sheer enjoyment of God blending the life of Jesus with the believer.

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"Whom having not seen you love; into whom though not seeing Him at present, yet believing, you exult with joy that is unspeakable and full of glory ..." (1 Peter 1:8)

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The enjoyment of Christ as life is "joy unspeakable and full of glory" .If you do not enjoy God then your experience is abnormal. Maybe ringo shows his contempt for the experience of God by mocking it as "woo woo enjoyment."This mocking is as old as the mocking of Ishmael of Isaac - the mocking of the fleshly effort of the enjoyment of God's grace.

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The imagery of the cross makes it plain that enjoyment is not involved.
  —ringo

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Again, we have a pitiful display of wrong headed knowledge without perhaps ANY spiritual experience at all.The cross of Christ is like the stripping off of leeches. If a man is covered in parasites, to have them shaved off would be a relief. The man says the cross of Jesus represents no enjoyment hasn't realized how troublesome the old fallen Adam self is and what a liberation it is to have him terminated.Jesus endured the cross for the joy that was set before Him (Hebrews 12:2) . And the believer gets to know that if he dies with Christ he will be raised with Christ. He knows that there is no death without resurrection. And if he endures denying himself while enjoying Christ within it will result in greater victory.Because if you bear the cross one day the cross will bear you.

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Following Jesus is hard work, often painful, sometimes dangerous. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it," has the same meaning as Matthew 25.

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On the other hand in Matthew Jesus said that His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

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" Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

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For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:28-30)

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To allow the Spirit of Christ to enter your being and to blend into your soul is to be set free. Even in labor there is rest because it is no longer you that lives but Christ that lives within you. He mingles with man and it is like power steering. Just some cooperation with His movement and the empowering is there.So though Paul went through much hardship he said that it was not he that labored but the grace of God that was with him.

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"But by the grace [enjoyment] of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them [apostles] yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)

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This enjoyment of Christ being everything for the believer is a LEARNING process. It is not an instantaneous matter one masters overnight the day he becomes a believer in Christ. It is a process from which a Christian never graduates. And it is a matter of deeper and deeper LEARNING.So Jesus said "LEARN of Me" . The Apostle Paul was certainly one who, in meekness, learned of Christ. He learned to live Christ. He learned to allow Christ to be the empowering grace. And learning so well he labored more abundantly than all the other apostles. Yet it was the grace within him laboring for Christ.

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jaywill writes:

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When we Christians speak of "the fall" we mean the downward collapse of Adam's world because of his sin.

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But of course the Bible says no such thing.

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The word "fall" may not appear. But the fact that there was a fall is evident.Romans 8:20 speaks of the fall -

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"For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it. In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Rom. 8:20)

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The freedom of the glory of the children of God is also a enjoyment. And it is an enjoyment that spreads to the environment which was subjected to decay and vanity and corruption.The believers have the foretaste of this enjoyment and await a fuller taste at "the revelation of the sons of God" (Rom. 8:19) And poor ringo mock contemptuously about the "woo woo enjoyment". "God loves a cheerful giver." (Second Corinthians 9:7)

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jaywill writes:

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Quote me where I said we are not responsible for our sins.

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You keep avoiding the question. You seem to exclude yourself from the judgement in Matthew 25. What other conclusion can there be?

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Notice no quotation, no evidence, no retraction of the false and slanderous claim that I believe each sinner is not responsible for his or her own sins.Woo woo hypocrisy.Be careful ringo. I might be the least of these the brothers of Jesus Christ. Or maybe ringo reserves his contempt for the least of these and looks around for some less least brothers to care for.I may have excluded myself from the prophecy of Matthew 25:31-46. I DID NOT ... exclude myself from the judgment seat of Christ. I wrote that judgment BEGINS at the house of God.At best your charge is mistaken. At worst you're dishonestly ignoring that I explicitly stated that the Christians are judged elsewhere.I explicitly wrote that I could fill up pages and pages of discussion here about the judgment of CHRISTIANS. So I did not exclude myself from judgment before the bema seat of Christ.

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I stand by the statement that you are trying to weasel yourself out of the judgement in Matthew 25. Let's see if you have the decency to answer the question that I've asked several times: Are you among the sheep and goats? Are you not claiming that God will judge you differently from the sheep and the goats?

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I answered you question before you launched your false accusation. Go back and READ what I said. Three categories:1.) Sheep
2.) Goats
3.) The least of these my brothers.If you don't agree that makes no difference to me. I told you that the nations there are not the brothers of Christ. They are judged according to how they did or did not treat the brothers of Christ.You erroneously interpret Matthew 25 as teaching that ALL men are brothers of Christ.I have no way of knowing if I will be rewarded to be with Christ as the THESE He refers to at the fulfillment of that prophecy. That will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ in the air, BEFORE He descends to establish His throne in Jerusalem in the Holy Land to carry out that judgment of the surviving nations on earth after the great tribulation.How do I know yet if I will be so rewarded? My Christian race is not yet completed. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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There are no "times and circumstances" mentioned in Matthew 25. You've written in a connection to the Revelation that doesn't exist in the text. "When" refers to the time when God will judge all nations.

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WHEN is the time of the prophecy ? " ... When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him ..." At WHAT TIME ? " ... at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." Is this before or after the millennium? It must be BEFORE because the sheep are told to inherit the kingdom prepared for them. "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." So this is at the commencement of the millennial kingdom for it is PREPARED for them.After the thousand years Satan is cast into the eternal fire. But there goats apparently go in to said punishment BEFORE Satan. For it has been prepared for the devil his angels. This suggests that it has only been prepared and Satan and angels have not yet entered into it.

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"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (v.41)

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But the devil and his angels are cast into the lake of fire after the millennial kingdom -

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"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison ..." (Rev. 20:7) "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophbet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (20:10)

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So the weight of evidence is that the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is at the BEGINNING of the thousand year kingdom. And Satan is locked up in the abyss while the dupes who followed him and antichrist and the false prophet go into the lake of fire before their leader Satan goes.Then at the END of the thousand years Satan is loosed for one more rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10) and then goes into that lake of fire to join his Antichrist and False Prophet who have already been there for one thousand years. The goats of the nations which mistreated the Lord's brothers ALSO must be still there.Their leader Satan finally joins them.So the WHEN and CIRCUMSTANCES of Matthew 25:31-46 are not guess work. They are quite logically deduced by these points as well as others.

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The sheep and goats are obviously not literal sheep and goats so the story should not be taken too literally. It is a general description of God's principles of judgement, not some "prophecy" of a specific event.

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It is a prophecy. And the general description relates to the fulfillment of this prophecy at the beginning of the millennium shortly after the descent of Jesus Christ. He comes down to a spot on the planet in the land of Israel. At that time the nations that are left on earth, whom Jesus spares, will inherit the kingdom prepared for man from the foundation of the world.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I was a Christian for some time before I comprehended that there was a fall or collapse of creation. I could never understand why would God make the troublesome things the way they are.One day a Christian brothers helped me to see the matter of the fall of man. And that was a big eye opener to me. That made the whole plan of God make much more sense.Now it was objected that the phrase "the fall" is not in the Bible. Perhaps that is true. I am not sure. But we do see biblical evidence of the need for a RESTORATION from something. So that something which needs to be restored from, we may call "the fall".1.) The word restoration or regeneration is used in relation to the Messianic kingdom of Christ in the millennium.

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"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you who have followed Me, in the RESTORATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:28)

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Restoration from what?
We may answer "restoration from the fall brought in by Adam."Something needs to be restored because it has been damaged.
So the strong implication is that there has been in creation some kind of degradation or fall. And at the time Jesus comes to "sit on the throne of His glory" (Matt. 19:28 comp. Matt. 25:31) that restoration [or regeneration] will commence.Many Bible passages in Old and New Testament speak of this period.2.) Also the heading up of all things in Christ strongly implies there has been a collapse of all things or a fall. This could be compared to a body without a head. It cannot stand up. It is collapsed in death. If a head could be given to that body and life also to that body, the head would cause the collapsed body to stand upright. It recovers from its state of fallen collapse.Here we see God's eternal purpose to head up all things in the universe in Christ:

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" ... in raising Him [Jesus] from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, Far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the age to come.

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And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, Which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all." (Eph. 1:20b-23)

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This may be a difficult passage. But condensed, it means that Jesus Christ in His resurrection and ascended state is be the Head over all things in creation rescuing creation from a collapsed rebellious heap of ruin. He is firstly the Head of His organic Body the new testament church. And through the church He transmits this headship outward into all creation.Because there is the need for such heading up under Jesus Christ this strongly implies that there has been a fall. There has been in creation a collapse into a heap of ruin.In a pile of junk there are some things higher in the pile and lower in the pile. But as a whole the entire pile is a mess. This is how the society of man is. And this is also evident in the natural world of many calamities like tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, droughts, famines, killer asteroids, diseases, etc,Though God holds everything from not becoming a total hell , there is the need for all things in society and in the environment to be headed up in Jesus Christ. God will head up all creation in a Righteous Man. And during the millennium this will be called "the restoration" (Matt. 19:28) .This explains why the WHEN of Matthew 25:31-46 is at the beginning of the restoration. It is WHEN Christ sits on the throne of His glory in Israel to govern the whole world.

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"Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the RESTORATION, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory ..." (19:28)

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"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." (25:31)

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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It's a general principle. You need to work with the general principle, not warp it to fit other cherry-picked passages.

It isn't a prophecy. The time is irrelevant. It's like saying, "When I was at WalMart the other day...." What matters is what happened at WalMart. The whole millennium fantasy is irrelevant to this passage. A prophecy about sheep and goats?