Importance of Original Sin

I haven't read your sermons and I'm not about to start now. Sorry, your biblical quote mining holds no interest for me.But I am interested in how you can say something like this:Jaywill writes:
I have been assuming that something about the first transgression of Adam and Eve and how it caused all their descendents to be constituted sinners with a sin nature.and not see the startlingly obvious point that you are being punished for the sin of Adam. That should be a really big problem for you but you don't want to look it in the eye.

It "proves" nothing of the kind. The human master returned during the servant's lifetime. Jesus is already here during our lifetime. The foolish virgins parable reinforces the idea that those that look for Him in the future miss Him in the present. It's a deliberate reading of what is presented in the gospels, as opposed to the version that you portray, which is not in the gospels. That has been shown here repeatedly. That's what I keep saying. If He is with us, He doesn't need to come back. His physical presence is irrelevant as long as He is spiritually present (and I don't meean "spiritual" in the woo-woo sense - see the thread on the human spirit).

You can expect then no further post of yours I'll be reading.Enjoy your soapbox.

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I haven't read your sermons and I'm not about to start now
You can expect then no further post of yours I'll be reading.
  —Jaywill

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Sorry, you don't get off that easily. I don't read your sermons and I doubt anyone does, but I do skim read your posts to get to anything you actually think, rather than pontificate about.And, btw, my posts have been pretty much confined to asking you to explain how original sin is not immoral - I have nothing to preach. I need to remind you, you have not yet answered this question - you've simply tried to avoid actually thinking about it and still are.

The 10 foolish virgins parable speak of the wisdom of Christ disciples being filled with the Holy Spirit (the oil) for the second coming of Christ.The foolish virgins had only the oil in their lamps.
The wise virgins had not only oil in their lamps but extra oil stored in their vessels with their lamps.

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" At that time the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

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And five of them were foolish and five were prudent

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For the foolish, when they took their lamps, did not take oil with them; But the prudent took oil with their lamps. "

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First of all they are going forth to meet the bridegroom. So the parable is about desiring the coming of the bridegroom Christ. So they ARE looking forward to the future for the coming of this most pleasant person, Christ.Twisting the parable to make it not about expecting Christ's coming in the future is grossly incorrect. The virgins "went forth to meet the bridegroom" . "[W]ent forth" signifies that the Christians are going out of the world to meet the coming Christ. Throughout the whole Christian life the believer should be going forth from the fallen world system to meet the coming Christ.Oil in the Bible is very often a symbol of the Spirit of God (Isaiah 61:1; Hebrews 1:9). So while these expectant virgins go to meet the coming bridegroom, what they do with the Holy Spirit is the crucial point of the parable.All the virgins are given a initial portion of oil. This means in their beings is the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit is the presence of Jesus Christ all during the church age. The oil in the lamp is the Holy Spirit within the Christian's human spirit as a lamp (Proverbs 20:27) .

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"The spirit of man is the lamp of the Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being." (Prov. 20:27)

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So the oil in the lamps signifies the Holy Spirit in the innermost kernel of a man's being. That is the center and nucleus of the human being. The Christian is joined to the Lord in the innermost spirit (1 Cor. 6:17).What distinguishes the wise virgins from the foolish virgins is that the wise virgins made sure they had in addition the oil in their lamps, but oil in their vessels. For brevity's sake I will only say now that that means the Holy Spirit filling up their soul and personality.This is the difference between merely being born again and being sanctified in the personality. The human spirit of the believer is born of the Spirit (John 3:6). And if he or she is wise should go on to be transformed in the soul by the same Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17,18).So on one hand Christ is WITH them in the form of the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand they go forth to meet Christ in His physical second coming.Five is a number representing responsibility. So five foolish and five wise does not mean half the Christians will be wise and half will be foolish. Rather it means that the responsibility as to whether a Christian will be wise or foolish is up to that Christian. We who believe into Jesus may go on after regeneration to wise concerning Christ's physical coming or we may be foolish concerning His physical coming.Both the wise the foolish lovers of Jesus have the initial Holy Spirit in their spirit. The wise lover of Jesus will store up extra oil in the personality, the soul, the behavior, the mind and emotion and will. This relates to sanctification and transformation. It is wise, after being born of the Spirit, to further allow the Holy Spirit to be "extra" acting upon the soul.This is a brief explanation.
This is a concise interpretation.The main point is that Christ is with both the wise and foolish disciples as the Holy Spirit. It is a false dichotomy to teach that to expect Christ to come in the future is totally antithesis to Him being present now.Both are true and not one or the other as ringo attempts to teach. "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) is the reality all down through the last 2,000 plus years of church history.That Christ is PRESENT in the believers as the Holy Spirit means He is the oil in the lamp. That He is physically coming again is the coming of the bridegroom. Because of the Triune God Christ is present with the disciples all the days until the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20)That Christ is also COMING in the future physically is quite testified to in chapters 24 - 25 of Matthew as well as numerous other places in the NT.The wise thing for the lovers of Christ to do during His physical absence but His presence as the Holy Spirit, is to allow Him to fill and saturate their personality. The responsibility to allow this filling of the soul from the spirit with the oil of the Holy Spirit rests upon every believer. The interpretation above (briefly outlined) is far more consistent with the rest of the New Testament.Peter says the normal disciples of Jesus should be going out of the world in consecration to Christ.

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"And Peter said to them, Repent and each one of you be baptized upon the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit... And with many other words he solemnly testified and exhorted them, saying, Be saved from this crooked generation. (Acts 2:38,40)

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This corresponds to lovers of Jesus receiving initially the Holy Spirit and going forth from the crooked world on account of Jesus. They are in the world yet they are no longer of the world.Yet Peter also says heaven must receive Jesus Christ physically until He comes again for His messianic kingdom.1.) He has been exalted in heaven and poured out on earth the Holy Spirit.

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"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

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2.) The believers have had their sins forgiven and been refreshed by the Lord's presence in the form of the Holy Spirit.

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"Repent therefore and turn, that your sins may be wiped away. So that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that He may send the Christ, who has been previously appointed for you, Jesus." (Acts 3:19,20)

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3.) Physically He is received into heaven.

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"Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times of the restoration of all things, which God spoke through the mouth of His holy prophets from of old." (v.21)

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4.) His being in heaven is "UNTIL" a certain time, meaning He will physically return to earth to His Holy Spirit indwelt followers.

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"Whom heaven must indeed receive until the times ..."

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5.) Therefore the disciples with the presence of the Lord in the form of the Holy Spirit await His physical return as the glorfied Godman as well.

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" For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty." (2 Peter 1:16)

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In other words on the mount of transfiguration they got a preview of the coming of the glorified Christ in splendorous majesty.

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"You also be long-suffering; establish your hearts because the coming of the Lord has drawn near." (James 4:8)

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He is with us believers as the Holy Spirit but He is also coming.

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"For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at His coming?" (1 Thess. 2:19)

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So the Lord is with the spirit of the Christians throughout the church age -

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"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
"The Lord be with your spirit." ( 2 Tim. 4:22a)
"Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? (2 Cor. 13:5b)

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Yet physically we await His coming and should not want to be put to shame from Him as His coming.

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"And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." ( 1 John 2:28)

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This last passage nicely covers both aspects of the Christian experience. The Christian has Jesus Christ within and should abide with Him. It is wise to linger and abide in His presence so that when He is physically manifested from His invisible inward presence, we may be bold and not be put to shame from Him at His coming."Now I expect that you (ringo) will not now attempt to put Matthew on one side of the universe and Acts on the other side of the universe and claim that they have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.I expect you to likewise try to say Peter's epistles have absolutely nothing to do with either Matthew or Acts or First John or First or Second Thessalonians or James.But the New Testament is clear. Christ is both with the believers until the consummation of the age (Matthew 28:20) AND He spoke of His physical coming again (chapters 24-25) and 26:29.

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"But I say to you, I shall by no means drink of this product of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father."

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Totally FALSE DICHOTOMY. And your contempt for Jesus Christ is oozing over. The apostle Peter spoke of your kind of mocking contempt concerning the physical coming of Christ.

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"Knowing first this, that in the last of days mockers will come with mocking, and going on according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? " ( 2 Peter 3:3,4)

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So we have from you not only the preaching of a heretical "another Jesus". We also have a mocking "woo-woo" heretic contemptuously ridiculing the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I certainly don't. His sermons are little more than his futile attempt at diverting attention away from the facts. And that takes effort. Trust me, I know.

In the parable, the bridegroom does come. It is not about anticipating a future event. It's about missing the point in the present. And they met him - past tense.

You're making the same utterly false dichotomy.Ie. If it is about the importance of the Christian life now, then it cannot have anything to do with Christ coming in the future. Weaker still.Because the bridegroom in the parable represents Jesus Himself, and because Jesus knows what will happen to His followers, the climax of the parable is spoken in past tense terms.Its a warning from One who knows how things WILL be going.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I didn't say it "cannot" have anything to do with Christ coming in the future. But there's no reason to think it does. Sez you. To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, sometimes past tense is just past tense.What's weak is your attempt to staple "end times" nonsense onto every passage in the Bible.

I see the logic of your argument, except that it negates the need to accept Jesus into our hearts. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Sin crouches outside and waits to be let in. What happens to the guy who accepts no mail from anyone?By the way---technically Jesus is symbolically here today...but not bodily. The Holy Spirit---the comforter is here with us today, but Jesus Himself has not yet returned.

That's right, it does - because "accepting Jesus into our hearts" is nonsensical woo-woo word salad. We need to accept the message, not the messenger. Three quarters of the world doesn't accept mail from Jesus. What kind of "loving" god would fry all of them? Your fate ought to be based on how much mail you accept from sin. A god who doesn't understand that isn't worth much. Bodily presence is irrelevant. My grandparents aren't here physically but they mean more to me today than when they were here physically; I appreciate them more. And that doesn't require any "second coming" by them.

Im not convinced of this. The whole idea of what it means to accept has to be explored. Jesus said that He was the way, the truth, and the life. How many people accept truth? How many people accept life? The question we should ask ourselves is what it means to answer that door. What it means to be granted the serenity to accept the things we cannot change and courage to change the things we can.Being a goat is a choice...not a destiny.

That's what I've been saying: never mind the messenger, read the message. You seem to contradict yourself. We don't need to be "granted" our destiny. We need to make an active choice, whether there's any external entity or not.

Personally I think thats an impossibility...the choice has to exist in order to make a choice.

You think there has to be an external entity to "give" us a choice? What's the difference between that and an external entity handing us our destiny on a plate?