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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
This one comment just sums up the depth of all of Faith's arguments.
The funny hats all by themselves show an unchristian spirit But to continue.
There are hundreds of people who denounced the Jesuits, many of them Catholics too.
There are thousands of people who denounce christian faiths, many of them are christians too.So if hundreds of people denounced your faith, it would be a christian faith? Do you have any clue how utterly devoid of logic all of your arguments are? I'm not talking about "Catholic Christians" I'm talking about the papacy and official RCC doctrine, and they deon't worship Jesus. In case you haven't noticed the Popes worship "Mary." They pray to "her," they avidly follow the "messages" of "her" apparitions and so on. To their doctrinal paganism I could add indulgences, fish on Friday, although I guess that has gone out, the Mass which is blasphemy, prayers to saints, prayers to "Mary," and give me time I'll think of more. Your hate has turned you into a person totally devoid of any sense of reality.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The standard is scripture.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Meanwhile there WERE true Christian groups that stayed outside of the Roman institution, recognizing it as Antichrist even from that early period, such as the Waldensians and the Albigensians, whom the RCC tracked down and murdered from time to time, calling them "heretics." Nobody says their doctrine was perfect but it WAS Christian ... The Albigenses are your idea of true Christians?
The idea of two Gods or principles, one being good the other evil, was central to Cathar beliefs. The good God was the God of the New Testament and the creator of the spiritual realm, as opposed to the bad God, whom many Cathars identified as Satan, creator of the physical world of the Old Testament. All visible matter, including the human body, was created by Satan; it was therefore tainted with sin. [...] Cathars thought human spirits were the genderless spirits of Angels trapped within the physical creation of Satan, cursed to be reincarnated until the Cathar faithful achieved salvation through a ritual called the Consolamentum.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What is the source of your quote? The RCC customarily accused those they persecuted of Gnosticism, which is what that paragraph is describing, or "Manichaeanism," to justify their persecutions. The Reformers, however, found them to be true Bible believers, not gnostic at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
The color is blue.
This comment makes as much as your response to my post.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
What is the source of your quote? Ever hear of the internet and google? If you don't like google, try bing or duckduckgo.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
What is the source of your quote? The RCC customarily accused those they persecuted of Gnosticism, which is what that paragraph is describing, or "Manichaeanism," to justify their persecutions. The Reformers, however, found them to be true Bible believers, not gnostic at all. It's that source of all evil, Wikipedia. If you have evidence that they were all really Baptists or something, I should like to see it.
Here is some actual Cathar literature. From a modern Protestant point of view it's as heretical as all get out.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What I've said is based only on the understanding that the Reformers found the Albigensians to be genuine Bible believers against the claims of the RCC. Either I heard wrong or their supposed gnostic writings are a forgery, which would also be well within the known doings of the RCC. If I find out I'll let you know.
However, the persecution and murder of REAL heretics is no less an abomination than of anyone else. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
What about the persecution and murder of jews and other non-christians? Is that an abomination?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What about the persecution and murder of jews and other non-christians? Is that an abomination? Yes, indeed, and the Inquisition racked up something like 17 million murders of Jews, Muslims, witches and sundry others over their 600 year official reign of terror (which persisted in other centuries less officially). It was the RCC that invented the Jewish ghetto and the identifying badge of the yellow star of David too.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
What I've said is based only on the understanding that the Reformers found the Albigensians to be genuine Bible believers against the claims of the RCC. Either I heard wrong ... Well, that can happen.
... or their supposed gnostic writings are a forgery, which would also be well within the known doings of the RCC. There's a couple of things wrong with this idea. First, that's not how you traduce people. You want to make people look bad, you write something like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Instead what we have is a rather sophisticated and scholarly defense of dualism:
Either there is only one First Principle, or there is more than one. If, indeed, there were one and not more, as the unenlightened say, then, of necessity, He would be either good or evil.. But surely not evil, since then only evil would proceed from Him and not good, as Christ says in the Gospel of the Blessed Matthew: "And the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit." If this was written to make the Cathars look bad, why isn't it a recipe for Southern-fried baby? Instead of allowing him to make good points, supported by shrewd scriptural quotations, against the teaching of the Church? The other thing, the more general point, is --- why would the RCC bother to paint us a picture of Cathars as being what we understand Cathars to be? That sentence came out a bit strange, let's see if I can explain my thinking. The RCC was quite happy to condemn proto-Protestants such as the Waldensians for being Waldensians. They accused them of believing in sola scriptura, of not worshiping saints, of criticizing the Papacy, of translating the Bible into the common tongue, etc, etc. They were also happy to condemn and burn the Protestants of the Reformation for the same reasons. So if the Albigensians were more of the same, then why would the same Church find the need to invent a fictitious heresy to burn them for rather than burning them for being more darn Waldensians? What would be the point?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9205 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
and the Inquisition racked up something like 17 million murders of Jews, Muslims, witches and sundry others over their 600 year official reign of terror
Actually would love to see your evidence for that figure.
It was the RCC that invented the Jewish ghetto and the identifying badge of the yellow star of David too. The ghetto was originally created to give Jews a sage haven from the general population. The ghettos were the safest place for jews to be in the european cities. Also, the star of david was not the most prevalent identifier for jews. Temporal authorities are the ones that enacted the actual laws. SO no the catholic churc did not invent the yellow star of david. Reading. Maybe you should try actually reading some real history books.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3628 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Faith: I didn't say they were sex crazed fiends, that's the popes down through history, and the priests in general, not particularly the Jesuits if at all. They are power crazed not sex crazed. Same sparkling sense of humour as always. Did you like the song? Edited by Archer Opteryx, : code Edited by Archer Opteryx, : Dang! Code again.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Funny it doesn't occur to you that YOU are trusting in whitewashed history.
"Safe haven" sure sounds like a whitewash to me, and always the people are blamed where the RCC leadership is really the instigator. Who provokes the Catholic people but their own priests? Why would they act against their Church? Also, the state for most of the Middle Ages was pretty much a tool of the RCC. There's another phony distinction. But oh well. I do tend to write from memory so have it your own whitewashed way.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They've gone to greater lengths than that to discredit their enemies.
And I also thought the Waldensians were called "Manichaeans." Oh well, more research to be done. I did google a lot of these issues in the last hour and came up with very little. Only a Reformation website, so it calls itself, (Reformation.org I think) that at least lists the Albigensians among the true believers. Now I've lost the link, drat, and I'm too tired to care.
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