YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.

.....But taking a word such as adonai with completely different consonents and trying to say the vowels were borrowed is pure conjecture on the part of you who believe this. It would not be nearly as unusual to assume that the early English translators added the o as when pronouncing yehweh, a slow pronounciation might have somewhat of an o sound. Then too, when translating into any completely different language, one would not expect it to look like the Hebrew as to vowels. Yah-o-weh is much closer to Yahweh than it is to adonai. If one would pronounce Yaweh very slowly, an o comes close to being pronounced. That Jehovah/Yaweh (proper name) is lord/adonai does not diminish the meaning or change the pronunciation of either word.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-12-2003]

I think I already pointed out as an aside that the current accepted English pronounciation of "W" is the exact same current French pronounciation of "Ou" as in "oui" which as you well know is pronounced "wee." You see, when a language lacks a vowel dedicated to a particular sound, that sound must be signified by some other alphabetic character or characters. You must know that, Buz ... I mean how many words must we waste here on the subject of phonetics.Standing in the shower and slowly voicing the name "yahwey" over and over again so slowly that the "W" in the second syllable becomes voiced as "OOOOOOOOUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAY" does not automatically insert additional vowels into the Tetragrammaton, oooooooookkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaay?

So how does that factor adonai into the pronunciation of YHWH? I'm contending that none of this does as these are two completely different words, the former a descriptive title and the latter a proper name of lord/master/ruler Jehovah, i.e. adonai Yahweh. Nor has anyone refuted that the proper modern English pronunciation of Yehowah/Yahweh is Jehovah.

Buz, I'm bored.biblicaltruth.com | VentureThis is not an endorsement of the content of the site. Please read the information and report back Monday. Enjoy your weekend.
Peace.

Absholem, move over to the side of truth and you'll get over being bored. This supercilious idea of rejecting the J because it only went back to the 17th century is nuts. You people who divide the "brethren" by insisting we must speak the name of God in the Hebrew language are wrong. We're English speaking Americans. Our language uses the letters J and V. Get use to it. Our people understand and relate to our language, not foreign ones or ancient ones.
The link you posted insists we use Hebrew in both the names of Jesus and Jehovah. That's bogus and nonsensical. Let the Jews use their Hebrew and we Americans will continue to use Jehovah and Jesus as our language renders it. If you people were consistent, you would refer to everone you know by the name of Joe or Judy by dropping the J and inserting the Y. You all are straining at gnats and swallowing camels somewhat like the Pharasees of Jesus's day.------------------
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Hi buzsaw,

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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Nor has anyone refuted that the proper modern English pronunciation of Yehowah/Yahweh is Jehovah.

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Actually, this has been refuted quite soundly.The tradition of the ineffable name doctrine resulting in the substitution of "adonai" is verified in myriad sources including the mishnah, the masorah and the apparatus of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.You have been shown the exact vowels points that were used in the Masoretic texts.If you will look in the book "Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible", by Emanuel Tov, pg.392, plate 12, you can see a photo reproduction of Exod. 14:28 - 15:14 from the Leningrad codex (B19) dated c. 1010 a.d.. There you will see the tetragrammaton (YHWH) pointed with the vowels of "adonai".Several sources verify that this hybrid vowel pointing is a grammatical impossibility if it were intended that the consonants of the tetragrammaton were to be pronounced. These sources include:"... commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah", which, however is a philological impossibility." (The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 9: p. 160)."Jehovah: A mispronunciation of the Hebrew "YHWH," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragramrnaton or 'Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible ... (ibid. vol. 7: p. 87).""To give the name YHWH the vowels of the word for Lord (Heb. Adonai) and pronounce it Jehovah, is about as hybrid a combination as it would be to spell the name Germany with the vowels in the name Portugal." ("The Emphasized Bible", Joseph Bryant Rotherham)All of which is nicely summed up by the Encyclopedic dictionary of the Bible:"Jehovah, a hybrid form for the divine name which originated in the mistaken idea that the consonants of the Tetragrammaton, YHWH (really pronounced "Yahweh"), were to be read with the vowel points found with them in the Masoretic Text... thus by combining these vowels with the consonants of the Tetragramrnaton, the mongrel form, "Yehowah," came into being, which with the English consonant j in place of the y and with the German pronunciation of the w as v, produced in turn the quaint form of "Jehovah." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible, p. 1109).You, buzsaw, are welcome to "believe" anything you want. As for any lurkers on this board, they can evaluate the above evidence and contrast it with your less than compelling speculation that; "if you say Yahweh kind of slow you could make an "o" sound and somehow end up pronouncing the whole thing "Jehovah". I'll leave it for them to decide, but as far as I'm concerned, this case is closed.Namaste'Amlodhi

Amen

http://www.familybible.org/Teaching/Messianic/Jehovah.htm------------------
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-13-2003]

Sorry, Buzsaw, but you cannot have it both ways. The basic premises of that article you just linked to are diametrically opposed to the statements of God himself as made in your Bible and in the Jewish Bible and regardless of the edition used as reference.

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, p. 680, vol. 7, ?the true pronunciation of the tetragrammaton YHWH was never lost. The name was pronounced Yahweh.

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Here are some excerpts from the link you provided: (did you read it?)

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From your link:

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". . .one of the most common misconceptions within Christianity is that God’s Name is Jehovah. (emphasis mine)

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"When reading the Scriptures or referring to the Sacred Name (HaShem), the Jews would substitute the word Adonay, which means Lord."

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"To indicate this substitution in the Masoretic Text, the Masoretes added the vowel points from the word Adonay to the Sacred Name"

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"Later, some Christian translators mistakenly combined the vowels of Adonay with the consonants of YHWH producing the word YaHoWaH. When the Scriptures were translated into German during the Reformation, the word was transliterated into the German pronunciation, which pronounces Y as an English J and pronounces W as an English V or Jahovah. Then in the early 17th century when the Scriptures were being translated into English with the help of some of the German translations, the word was again transliterated as Jehovah, and this this unfortunate accident has carried over into many modern English translations." (emphasis mine)

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"The term is now recognized by all proficient Bible scholars to be a late hybrid form, a translation error , that was never used by the Jews." (emphasis mine)

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Does any of this sound familiar? Is this not exactly what I have repeatedly demonstrated for you? Doesn't the link that you yourself provided tell you that the pronunciation "Jehovah" is a "misconception" and is the result of "mistranslation" and an "unfortunate accident" Yes, the article you linked to agrees exactly with what I have repeatedly demonstrated to you; the Name should be pronounced "Yahweh", not "Jehovah", not "slowly with an "o", but "Yahweh".Now, since even you yourself have provided additional evidence that the pronunciation "Jehovah" is simply the result of "misunderstanding" and, indeed, is a "mistake", don't you think it's time to just admit it (remember, pride is a sin) and quit belaboring this ad nauseum?Namaste'Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 12-13-2003]

But my contention and the reason for posting what the Judaic Encyclopedia said is that before at least 586BC the tetragram was prounounced Yahweh. So this was the official pronunciation, no matter what the Mesorites did many centuries later and the word adonai had nothing to do with the official pronunciation because the phobia of speaking the word, i.e. changing the name to adonai, didn't come until later than 586 BC.------------------
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

That the o was added is not unusual since the English language is much different than the Hebrew. You're insisting that the English be exactly as the Hebrew, and that doesn't cut it for translating. The Jews may claim this, but that doesn't make it so. There is an o sound in saying the w in Yahweh whether you say it fast or slow. It's just that when you say it slow it is more pronounced. Say it slowly to yourself and you will see what I mean.The same people who are uptight about the English name Jehovah are the ones uptight about the name Jesus, trying to insist the Hebrew Yeshuah be pronounce or you've got one foot in hell, so to speak. Again, we're Americans and that's the way we speak the name in English. You need to get over your own phobia about this.

The pronounciation of "W" in English has no "E" sound by itself. It does however have a subtile "O" sound by itself. The "E" sound in Yahweh comes from the combination of the "W" and the "H".

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Originally posted by buzsaw

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. . .the word adonai had nothing to do with the official pronunciation . . .

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It is clear from the statements you make in your posts that you have refused to hear or simply have not understood a single word I've posted. I will waste no more energy on this. I have presented you with the facts, ignore them at your leisure.P.S.

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Originally posted by buzsaw:

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You need to get over your own phobia about this.

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Yet another inane statement. Since I have no theistic beliefs I can scarcely be phobic about this, n'est ce pas? You can call the old boy JoHo for all I care. (But be sure to say it real slooow.)Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 12-13-2003]

JoHo pronounced real slow: dGuWhaOOO aWhaOOOOOOO (No "i" or "e")