Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries

I know that's what you mean. I'm just pointing out that it's in your head, not in what Jesus taught. Often they don't though. That's the problem with get-out-of-hell-free Christianity.

Repent and believe, said Jesus. It certainly IS in what He taught. And he who does not believe that I AM [God in the flesh] will die in his sins.
That's the foundation, much else follows, but without the foundation the much else is useless.If your foundational faith is fake then it's fake, but as I said I'm leaving all that to the individual, I can't judge that. But it's necessary to KNOW that your salvation is a matter of faith alone so you won't have the wrong idea that you can earn your way to heaven. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So we come full circle: What does it mean to repent and believe? Does repentence mean saying, "I repent!" or does it mean stopping doing what you were doing? Does belief mean saying, "I believe!" or does it mean doing what He wanted us to do? I didn't say anything about "earning your way to heaven". Jesus said that those who care for the least of His brothers go to heaven and those who don't don't. It isn't about earning anything; it's a prescribed consequence.

Repentance is something you do, not something you say, and I'm sure you know that. You recognize your sins and you regret them and you now set yourself not to sin again. Yes of course it means stopping what you were doing if it's sin, not that you'll completely succeed but the will is what matters.And of course believing is also something you do, not something you say, and it will be PROVED by many other things you do, as James says in his epistle, but belief itself is something you recognize in yourself. Do you or do you not believe He died for your sins, do you or do you not believe that He rose from the dead, do you or do you not believe that He is God Himself incarnate as a man? You know if you believe those things, belief is of the heart and mind, I don't know if you do unless you tell me and even then how could I know, it's something only YOU can know. That's the nature of belief. [ABE: this is overstated: of course we can sometimes have a good idea about the state of another person's heart, I'm just emphasizing that belief is an interior state, like repentance /ABE].ABE: Caring for the least of His brothers and all the other deeds by which we will be judged are BASED on faith in His death for us, and if we have that faith then the deeds will follow. But people who do good things without that faith are not saved.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Catholics believe all that. On the contrary, "by their fruits ye shall know them." So if the deeds don't follow the faith isn't genuine, which is what I've been saying. People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not.

This in context was meant to illustrate interior beliefs that only you can judge whether you have them or not. Some may, as I keep saying it's a thing one has to judge for oneself, and it's not something YOU can judge for another either. Some Catholics give assent to all the gospel truths but REALLY believe they are saved by performing the rituals of the church, receiving the sacraments and so on. I've met Catholics who put all their faith in "Mary" or pray to "Jude" or other "saints."Believing something in an intellectual way isn't saving faith. As I said, people need to know what saving faith is and then they have to decide if they have it or not. Someone else can't judge that for them in the end. I already said that faith is proved by works, and here I'm simply emphasizing that belief and repentance are interior things that require you to determine for yourself if you have them. They aren't mere lip service: just SAYING one believes and repents, which is what you were asking, if you will recall, they are REAL internal attitudes you can recognize in yourself whether you have them or not.But as a matter of fact you are wrong about the context of that quote. It's not meant for Christians to judge each other, it's specific to identifying false teachers: And as I've pointed out on this thread the leaders of the RCC are high on the list of such false prophets and ravening wolves, who mislead the flock to their destruction. Earlier in the thread I listed a number of times the false doctrines and sins of these wolves. Yeah, but beware of thinking YOU can judge that about a person. Not according to scripture. The Old Testament says "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," and Paul knocks himself out teaching that good deeds alone are useless, using himself as an example, a man raised in the strictest Phariseeism who followed the Law to the letter and now says all that was garbage and he had to give it all up to put all his faith in Christ alone. If you think your good deeds without conscious and specific faith in Christ put you in good stead with God you are badly deceived.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Bullshit!
They do not put "ALL" their faith in Mary. If they did they wouldn't be Catholics.
Lying for Jesus again I see.

I agree. I would suggest that mistakes about the meaning of faith, omitting references to repentance, and trying to completely dissociate faith from works all provide openings to exactly the kind of confusion you say you want to avoid.Yes, there are some misguided Catholics. But I cannot say I have ever met a Catholic who put all of their faith in Mary, or a Catholic who thought there was some kind of works merit badge system for obtaining God's grace.

I suppose the phrase "all of their faith" is misleading, but since you can't split your faith between Christ and anyone else it might as well be all of it, and the Popes seem to have a particular fondness for displaying their devotion to Mary. Mary has NO role in salvation and the Catholic veneration of her misleads people to Hell even if they are also devoted to Christ. Just saying that gives me the willies. You can't be "also" devoted to Christ. He's the Savior and there is no other; He's our intercessor and there is no other.As for Catholics who are trusting in their works for salvation, the Catholic system TELLS them salvation is in the Church, the rituals, the sacraments and so on. Trusting in works for salvation may not be obvious on the surface, we easily deceive ourselves on this point, all of us do because by nature we are works-oriented. Luther especially, but really all the Reformers, recognized that they themselves had such wrong ideas about salvation due to their Catholic training, and those today who leave the RCC say the same thing. So the odds are that the vast majority of Catholics really do not have saving faith. Those who hope to be saved really do need to be warned that they are on the wrong track and get out of that system.And I did meet a Catholic who went to church every week, never prayed, kept a statue of Mary in his room, and thought he was going to heaven.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I think those are all good answers. I just wish you came across that way in discussions. You come across as having many, many more criteria for a "true Christian" than simply "saved by faith."HBD

Or perhaps you are misinterpreting what they do and why they do it?The easiest way to convince me that this is a problem specific to Catholics would be to quote official, up to date Church doctrine. You cannot convince me or anyone else by just reciting what you believe or what someone told you. Does not sound like much of a Catholic to me. Surely you are not telling me that Catholicism teaches not praying?And I've met church going Baptists who are former members of the KKK. They didn't seem to think being in the KKK interfered with going to heaven. I think some of them thought of their participation as works. I cannot say how much they did or did not pray. They also hated Catholics and Jews just about as vehemently as did Martin Luther.So what did we learn from this exchange of anecdotes? I think Catholics know that reverence for Christ's mother does not get them into heaven. Heck, none of the hateful stuff you talk about doing has the least bit of positive impact on your own salvation. Does not stop you from calling it Christian does it?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

No that is not right. There are lots of possible motives for doing good, truly altruistic deeds. Many of them have nothing to do with faith or religion.In essence you are arguing that the converse of a true premise must also true. Not the case.

Remember that old Bill Cosby skit (I think it was titled "Himself") where he decides what various groups should be eliminated until finally it comes down to the only one left is himself. I see fundies operating much the same way. I come from a Baptist background but started attending a Church of the Nazarene about 15 years ago. One main difference is that Baptists believe in eternal security and the Nazarenes say that it is possible to lose your salvation. I struggled with that for a while, but one of the things I have realized more recently is that you cannot simply "BE" a Christian you must "DO" Christianity. This is the whole point of the sheep and the goats story. I would agree with these definitions. I think they fall under the category: "follows Jesus and his teachings as related by the apostles." Yea, and many divisions are based on much sillier things. It's really the sad thing about the church and honestly one of the major things that turns people off to institutionalized Christianity.HBD

Exactly. I wonder if Faith would agree that even her definition is included in what you say above. It clearly is.

Well, not "included in," because I think the definition I've been giving is prior to all others, is foundational. Yes, it's one of the teachings of the apostles, but as I've been trying to keep the focus here, it's prior to all the others because salvation itself is prior to all the other teachings. You can't really fully follow Jesus unless you are saved, except in the most superficial and ultimately personally destructive ways. Destructive because it's sad to think of people appreciating Christian teaching and trying to follow it but failing at the most basic level by not even being saved. Makes me shudder.ABE: I guess I should add that of course it's better for an unbeliever to live like that than to follow the devil, far better not just for this life but also for eternity. /ABEAlthough salvation is foundational I also would go on to say that there is a strong cultural Christianity that is hugely important, I don't want to denigrate it. Christianity DID turn the world upside down in its early years, did introduce a radical moral perspective that improved life for everybody it touched. Even though many of our American founders of the Constitutional generation were not saved Christians but Deists and Unitarians and in Paine's case an outright atheist, they all affirmed the importance of Christian morality as necessary to a rational and humane society. The vast majority of Americans in their time were at least culturally Christians and that is very important. Love your neighbor as yourself, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, Do not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery in any form (which includes aberrant sexual practices), honor your parents which includes all rightful authorities, and love and trust God. It is possible to live that way and not be saved, but it is nevertheless the best way to live and it is the Christian way to live.But back to the criteria for salvation, it is said different ways in scripture too. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" is probably the most stripped-down version, or maybe "He who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" is even more stripped-down. "Repent and believe the gospel" is how Jesus put it in Mark 1:15. In John 8:24 He says you must believe He is God or you will die in your sins. In John 3 He says you must be born again, and Peter says the same in 1 Peter 1. And then there is also John 3:16 that says God sent His only begotten Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. It is Paul who explains the meaning of faith versus works, in many different places. You really need to understand all the different ways salvation is described to get the full picture, but the wonderful teachings of Christianity that make for a humane and kind society all build on salvation. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.