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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
And believing something "wtih all your heart" isn't saving faith either. Real faith is blood, sweat and tears.
Believing something in an intellectual way isn't saving faith. Faith writes:
Context, you say?
But as a matter of fact you are wrong about the context of that quote. It's not meant for Christians to judge each other, it's specific to identifying false teachers:quote:Jesus was talking specificlly about getting into heaven - by doing the will of His father. Faith writes:
You really don't own a mirror, do you? I'm not the one who is judging anybody in this thread.
ringo writes:
Yeah, but beware of thinking YOU can judge that about a person. So if the deeds don't follow the faith isn't genuine, which is what I've been saying. Faith writes:
I already quoted it once; here it is again:
ringo writes:
Not according to scripture. People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not.quote: Faith writes:
Maybe three times is a charm:
If you think your good deeds without conscious and specific faith in Christ put you in good stead with God you are badly deceived.quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Not at all. I'm not saying anything "must" be true. I'm just saying that in this specific case, it is. ringo writes:
In essence you are arguing that the converse of a true premise must also true. People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not. Since the "faith" refered to here manifests as good deeds, the good deeds are evidence of that faith, regardless of motive. If there's only one entrance to the room, anybody in the room came in thorugh that entrance.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I believe the standard bad answer to Matthew quotes is "That stuff was for Jews. Faith does not use that, to her credit.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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because I think the definition I've been giving is prior to all others, is foundational. Yes, it's one of the teachings of the apostles Doesn't that about do it Faith? If everything you say can be identified as one of Christ teachings, then how can referring to that as a definition not catch everything? For Christians Christ is the Foundation. Period. In fact, I'd define Christianity in exactly those terms. You are free to identify your favorite parts as foundational, but surely doing so risks ending up in the goat pile despite your best intentions.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are reading out of context, wrongly "dividing the word of truth" which scripture tells us we must be careful to avoid.
Up to Matthew 7:20 Jesus is addressing the dangers brought into the churches by false teachers. He says twice that we shall know THEM by their fruits. He's talking ONLY about the false prophets or teachers. From Matthew 7:21 he is talking about people who make a false profession of faith, calling Jesus "Lord" but not living according to God's ways. This is another subject. We are not told anything here about judging anybody by their fruits. That, again, refers to the false teachers. And again I've over and over affirmed that good deeds must follow faith, but in this case He's talking about having a false faith to begin with. We must call Him "Lord" but if He is really our Lord we will obey Him. Sorry, not seeing anything in your post that speaks to the points I made.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Since the "faith" refered to here manifests as good deeds, the good deeds are evidence of that faith, regardless of motive. If there's only one entrance to the room, anybody in the room came in thorugh that entrance. But there isn't only one entrance to the room. Some come in by the door of faith and do good deeds, which evidences their faith; but others come in by the door of self-will and do good deeds though the lack of faith may not be apparent. Still the source is different.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 493 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Raphael, you are wrong about this. Jesus was very clear that religious leaders who mislead people with their corruptions are going to Hell. That's how He preached to the Pharisees, [abe] for instance in Matthew 23:33.. Faith you know that I respect you and your faith but I do not quite see eye to eye with you on this point. Here's why:
quote: quote: quote: quote: and of course,
quote: It is pretty clear that God loves the world, and has justified the entire world. This is a theme throughout the entire Bible, from creation. The human race has been declared righteous, not through works, but simply because of the grace of God. It is His character to love, and so He does, through becoming human and dying. This, I would argue, is the penultimate example of love for the entire world and is the theme of salvation. To say that Jesus does not love "religious leaders who mislead people with their corruptions" does not make sense at all, looking at the character of God revealed throughout the Bible and in the character of Christ. This does not mean however, that they will inherit the Kingdom. I think this is where we're disconnecting, or you saw some sort of mistake in my previous post. Jesus can love all of mankind sure, but sometimes love means leaving people to their decisions. This is the loving rather than wrathful thing to do, and I agree with you that many corrupted religious leaders will not inherit the kingdom. But because they will be destroyed is not sufficient reason to say they are not loved by God. God is love (1 Jhn. 4:8).
Jesus loves broken sinners, yes, He does not love power-hungry religionists. I'm sure you and I are ordinary broken sinners and not corrupt religionists. Well again, "power hungry religionists" are broken sinners. If Jesus did not die for every child molester, murderer, rapist, liar, hypocrite, hateful human being than salvation means nothing. Its not really up to us to choose who God loves, unfortunately. Scripture certainly tells us that it is God's nature to love though, and his people's job to be His hands in the world, aka, do the actual loving instead of placing religionists into boxes because we don't like their sin. It's pretty much what they would do, and not really a balanced perspective. Hope that makes sense! - Raph Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Not sure where to begin on your post, Raphael. Maybe with saying you seem to be confused about the difference between sheep and wolves. The sheep are the cute woolly ones that aren't very bright and go ba-a-a-a while the wolves are the lean and hungry ones with the big teeth.
Or maybe I could start by saying that scripture is clear that God does NOT love everyone as you claim, because He says in Romans 9:13 ... Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. God IS love but love hates what violates love. And I feel like repeating that Jesus did call the Pharisees vipers and asked how they could escape Hell with their attitudes. The passages you quote, about Jesus going after His lost sheep and how He died for sinners and how "we" have been justified by faith and so on, refer to the sheep that Jesus died for, not the wolves that want to eat the sheep. Those who ARE sheep, those who have been justified, have repented and put trust in Him and now belong to His flock. They do not include the "power-hungry religionists" I was talking about who have already broken into the sheepfold and set up shop with their sheepskins barely camouflaging their big teeth. Those are the ones with the tiaras and red robes and the televangelists that tell you to send them money and all the false teachers that have formed the various cults that are taking people to Hell and many others that are already INSIDE the churches. They COULD have chosen salvation but they chose power and corruption instead.
Well again, "power hungry religionists" are broken sinners. No they are not. They are ravening wolves who prey on the sheep.
If Jesus did not die for every child molester, murderer, rapist, liar, hypocrite, hateful human being than salvation means nothing. Sure He did but the way they get saved is by repenting from all that, with true regret and desire to change and make restitution, putting all trust in Him. That is not what ravening wolves do. They get into the church and devour the flock. Sure, a wolf COULD repent and be saved, but I'm talking about the ones who don't. "Power hungry religionists" are what some people INSIDE the church are.
Its not really up to us to choose who God loves, unfortunately. But we can judge from His word the difference between repentant sinners and unrepentant church leaders whose fruit is evil. We are told by Jesus Himself to do this.
Scripture certainly tells us that it is God's nature to love though, and his people's job to be His hands in the world, aka, do the actual loving instead of placing religionists into boxes because we don't like their sin. Religionists are false Christians, Raphael, they are not repentant sinners like true Christians -- repeat, they are UNrepentant -- they are false Christians, they are frauds, they are fleecers of the flock and power-mad tyrants, disguised as harmless sheep of course, and we are warned to learn how to identify them and expose them and warn the flock away from them. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : trying to break my habit of capitalizing words for emphasis Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
You're drawing a line where there is none in Matthew. The entire passage is about people who pretend they are Jesus' followers but are not. Jesus draws no distinction between the false teachers and the lip-service-payers.
Up to Matthew 7:20 Jesus is addressing the dangers brought into the churches by false teachers. He says twice that we shall know THEM by their fruits. He's talking ONLY about the false prophets or teachers. From Matthew 7:21 he is talking about people who make a false profession of faith, calling Jesus "Lord" but not living according to God's ways. This is another subject. We are not told anything here about judging anybody by their fruits. That, again, refers to the false teachers. Faith writes:
That's what I'm saying. A faith in Jesus being the Son of God and dying on the cross to save you is a false faith. The only true faith is in doing.
And again I've over and over affirmed that good deeds must follow faith, but in this case He's talking about having a false faith to begin with.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You misunderstand the metaphor. The entrance is the good deeds. Paul said himself that faith without works is dead; there is no entrance by faith alone. And it doesn't matter whether you came down the hallway from the left or the right. There's only one way in.
But there isn't only one entrance to the room. Some come in by the door of faith and do good deeds, which evidences their faith; but others come in by the door of self-will and do good deeds though the lack of faith may not be apparent. Still the source is different.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Then it's a meaningless metaphor, has nothing to do with the reality.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
That's what I'm saying. A faith in Jesus being the Son of God and dying on the cross to save you is a false faith. The only true faith is in doing. I would word this differently. The only true faith is the one that leads to doing. But you seem to arguing exactly the point you denied you were arguing when I accused you of asserting the converse.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're drawing a line where there is none in Matthew. You're wrong. There is a new paragraph indicated and the commentators deal with the topics as separate. It's clear enough from context anyway.
The entire passage is about people who pretend they are Jesus' followers but are not. Jesus draws no distinction between the false teachers and the lip-service-payers. Sorry you are wrong. The lip service people are only harming themselves, Jesus is warning about the false teachers up through verse 20 because they can harm others.
That's what I'm saying. A faith in Jesus being the Son of God and dying on the cross to save you is a false faith. The only true faith is in doing. That's the exact opposite of what scripture teaches, in fact that's blasphemy and the road to Hell for sure. "Faith in doing" is that very attitude of thinking you can make yourself righteous that is condemned, rather than depending on Christ for your righteousness which is the gospel. It's self-righteousness, it's pride in self, the "something of which to boast" that Paul says is excluded. It's earning your way to heaven. Can't be done. ====== Luther had the honesty to know he couldn't be righteous enough for heaven. That's what finally led him to see what Paul is REALLY saying, that we can't be saved by our own efforts and must be saved by Christ as a gift of free grace. You need to study Paul. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Tell it to Jesus.
Then it's a meaningless metaphor, has nothing to do with the reality.quote: quote: I'd call it a fairly important metaphor.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Fair enough.
I would word this differently. The only true faith is the one that leads to doing. NoNukes writes:
Allow me to repeat: The converse is true in this case.
But you seem to arguing exactly the point you denied you were arguing when I accused you of asserting the converse.
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