Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries

Jesus is saying to come to Him for salvation. There is nothing whatever in that about deeds, only wanting Him, seeking Him, opening to Him, depending on Him, spending time with Him.

New paragraph? You should no better than that. I haven't said anything about "making yourself righteous". You need to study Jesus.

The reason He wants you to be "with Him" is to do the deeds. You are "with Him" every time you do something for the least of His brothers. That is how you will be judged.

"Without Me you can do nothing.""With God all things are ;possible."You seem to think you are saying something like Ephesians 2:10: But the problem is you keep saying something else, such as that faith in the death of Christ is false faith and that true faith is in good deeds. And you don't seem to know that that is self-righteousness or works righteousness. If our faith is not in Christ's sacrifice we have no way to do acceptable good deeds. It all has to come from Him.The foundation for Ephesians 2:10 is the previous two verses that I've quoted many times here: Then it goes on to We are saved by grace, through faith, and even our faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. All of it is God's gift, none of it is from our own works, because otherwise we would be tempted to boast and put ourselves above God. But we are HIS workmanship, all of HIS doing, created in Christ Jesus for good works that God had already ordained for us, and our job is to walk in them. It's all coming from Him, none of it from us. So that all glory is to Him and not to us. Soli Deo Gloria.

I'm saying that "faith in the death of Christ" on its own is false faith. That's what Paul said.I'm saying that true faith, true righteousness, which gets you a place at Jesus' side with the sheep, depends on good deeds. That's what Jesus said. Jesus pointed out to His disciples that the rich men who gave bags of gold were doing less for Him than the lady who gave her last two mites. The problem with boasting is that you're doing your own measuring. The boasters are goats who thought they were doing God's will but they were not.

I never said faith was on its own, I've consistently said works must follow as the result of salvation, only that in themselves they have nothing to do with salvation. Being judged on our deeds is all about doing the Lord's will on the basis of our salvation. You get it all upside down, but since this has already all been said I don't see any reason to say any more.

That's not what Jesus said. He said that all nations - i.e. everybody - will be judged on their deeds. The sheep who don't know they were doing the Lord's will are doing His will and the goats who believe they're doing His will are not.

I expect unbelievers will be judged according to their deeds. There are levels of Hell.

As Jesus said, the ones who think they are "believers" sometimes are not - and the ones who don't think they are belieivers sometimes are.

The 'faith versus works' dichotomy is a Protestant fetish. It reflects the issues of the early sixteenth century in which Protestantism was born.Sales reps for indulgences described 'grace' as a bank account: a certain number of merits could offset a certain number of demerits. The idea was shocking to many Catholics and the backlash gave us both the Reformation (for those who left the Catholic church) and the Counter-Reformation (for those who stayed in). The two movements had much in common.The indulgence controversy was, historically speaking, a momentary annoyance. That overreach has long since gone away. But the backlash remains with us. Fundies who get worked up about 'faith and works' are one artifact of it. Certainly the idea that one must believe a certain formulaic statement about 'faith and works' (as a requirement for club membership, or else be damned to non-Christian status) is a product of that era's sectarian hostilities. As people polarised, they drew lines in the sand.But 'faith versus works' as defined in the Protestant formula did not exist as an issue in early Christianity. When Paul went off in his epistles about faith he set it against 'works of the law.' Protestants like to ignore those last three words but they are important. By this he meant Jewish customs that the Jewish members of his community wanted to see the goyim members follow. The early Christians had lots of problems meshing observant Jews with recently pagan goyim in their community. The issue of indulgences was not even on the horizon.For Martin Luther and John Calvin a millennium-and-a-half later, indulgences were a big issue. Meshing observant Jews with recently pagan Christians in their community was not a problem on their radar screen. Those who put a Protestant interpretation on Paul's writings are engaged in an act of gross anachronism.Actually, when you look at what Yeshua says in the Gospels (especially Matthew) and what James says in his letter, you find a sensible relationship of motive to action. They are two sides of one coin. Any good actor or storyteller or psychologist can tell you that action reveals character and motive expresses itself in action. There is no 'versus'. Together the two stand or together the two fall.Yeshua's teachings about 'good deeds' reflect contemporary Jewish teachings about mitzvot. A mitzvah is an act of compassion by which one creates a connection of heaven to earth. This is what the widow at the temple was doing by giving away her last two coins. This is what Yeshua's disciples do when they hug a leper or give a cup of water to those in need. A later rabbi called mitzvot a means of 'blessing the moment'. In blessing those in need, one blesses oneself, and all.___Edited by Archer Opteryx, : clarityEdited by Archer Opteryx, : typo repair

That passage is very controversial. You will find commentators on so many different sides of it I wouldn't know where to begin to sort it all out myself. Some say it's a special judgment between the nations while the Church has been raptured and returned with Christ while He judges the nations. Others say no the Church will be included in the judgment, the sheep on the right hand. But Christians are His brethren so who is being approved or disapproved for good or bad treatment of His brethren? Christians too? Some include the Jews along with the Christians as His brethren. Some insist on a literal understanding of "the nations" as the focus, or the Gentile nations, some make a distinction between this judgment and the final White Throne Judgment.I don't know how to sort it all out and I don't see where you get your certainty about any of it. There's nothing in it to identify "belief" as such, it IS all focused on deeds. Christians do expect to be judged by our deeds just as everyone else will be, but that's a different matter from salvation as I keep saying.But there is no place in scripture that ever suggests you can be saved, be a Christian, etc. without conscious belief and trust in Christ, so your trying to make this passage mean that doesn't hold water. You are just playing with words.Why do you insist on this? If you know of people you think or hope are saved although they don't believe in Christ, why wouldn't you make it your business to be absolutely sure they are saved by making sure they know the gospel of Christ? Just in case? What's this desire to subvert the teaching of two millennia?

The Son of man would be a brother to all men; that seems simple enough. I just prefer to take a simple, straightforward approach that makes sense instead of trying to shoehorn it into a save-me theology. If there was a god, he would care about what we do, not what we believe. Sure there is. The passage we're talking about is one example. I'm just quoting what Jesus (supposedly) said. If people have been wrong about it for two millennia, that doesn't concern me.

Not according to scripture. He specifically said when his family were present that His true family is those who obey His father. That's not the whole human family.

BINGO!

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Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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Quite true but who do you think those are? Only those who are born again and have the Spirit of the Father can obey the Father.And you are changing the subject from my answer to your claim that all humanity is His brethren. Clearly they aren't, only those who obey the Father are.Do you obey the Father?