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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
When I first looked for the book I found it at Amazon for over $200 so no I haven't read it. I see it's now available elsewhere, I suppose a reprint of some sort, for a reasonable price, but right now my book budget is shot.
The talk by Stringer on my blog is based on that book and he makes good points about original sources. Since I haven't read it I can't judge it with any finality but it sounds like it has a solid basis in original documents and I would like to read it. ABE: Forgive me if I must add that since James was at loggerheads with the Pope, and the papacy and the Jesuits are known for their attempts to destroy Protestants one way or another, I'm rather predisposed toward the possibility that they are behind the smear campaign against him. If you read what I quoted above about why he was in favor of the Divine Right of Kings, and put it together with his writings against the papacy, plus the fact that there was a Catholic conspiracy to murder him and blow up the English Parliament, I dunno, looks to me like there's a Jesuitical rat in there somewhere. Coston is an Anglo-Catholic, a position way too pro-Catholic for me, but if he wrote the truth about James, more power to him -- or at least to his work. /ABE Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So here's the blog post I did on this subject a while back, featuring a talk by a pastor who had done some research into King James I, as well as the transcript of the talk. Yes, but no justification of the tortures is present, but a disproportionate amount of energy on defending against charges of homosexuality. I can tell your priorities!
He based most of it on a book by a Stephen Coston who did years of research, and here is something Coston wrote on the bad scholarship on King James that he discovered in his research. I don't care about claims of his poor gait, bad eating habits or homosexual exploits. He's not on 'trial' here for any of that. I wouldn't consider any of that slander since it does not affect his reputation in my view. The accusation is that he tortured people. The evidence: his own testimony. He thought he could rule supreme over Parliament, and dissolved Parliament, making him a dictator and was quoted as saying, I am surprised that my ancestors should have permitted such an institution to come into existence.
At that site you can read about the history of the concept of the Divine Right of Kings for which James is so frequently vilified. I'll let you judge for yourself, in James' own words:
quote: some website writes: By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear." Well Catholics were forced to betray their understanding of God's Law, so you can understand why they were pissed off right? {Act of Supremacy 1558}
quote: Anybody in public office, religious office, or attending university had to essentially renounce the Pope. It was a criminal offence to refuse. There were resignations. Many Catholics lost their lands and properties. What do you think American Protestants would do if Obama treated them in a comparable fashion?
A sad chapter in history but it doesn't mean they weren't good Christians themselves Are you sticking to moral relativism in your defence of this claim?
it doesn't justify heaping slander on the man in any case You've accused me of slandering James, but haven't proven anything I have said about him false. Instead you keep referencing people that defend him against charges of homosexuality. Which is worse according to God's law? Torture or gay sex?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Actually I haven't found anything about his torturing anybody. Perhaps I'm preoccupied and missed it. So would you be so kind as to point me directly to what you are talking about? Thank you.
I guess you're in favor of the Pope running the world? Would like to see the Holy Roman Empire reinstated and all the nations of the world made subservient to him? That's what the flap between Protestantism and Catholicism is all about at root. If the Jesuits weren't out to undermine Protestant nations in order to reestablish the rule of the Pope over them all, we could live quite peaceably with them. But it was their determination to exterminate Protestantism that brought them under the severe laws of England. Bloody Mary had been a last straw, then the Protestants cracked down. But the Jesuits know how to bide their time and work behind the scenes. So now the UK has liberalized some of those old laws. They must think the wolf has changed his ways and now eats grass instead of Protestants -- and Jews and sometimes Muslims and others. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
When I first looked for the book I found it at Amazon for over $200 so no I haven't read it. Then how can you make that determination that it is credible and is adequately sourced?
The talk by Stringer on my blog is based on that book and he makes good points about original sources.
What were those points he made? I will not be going to your blog or listening to anything "Dr." Phil Stringer has to say. His CV1975 Bachelor of Science in Bible, Indiana Baptist College 1980 Master of Arts in Christian Education, Freedom University 1997 Doctor of Philosophy in English Bible, Landmark Baptist College 2004 Doctor of Religious Education, American Bible College He has no real doctorate. Landmark is an an unaccredited school. Religious schools in FL have no government oversight. They can teach anything or nothing. The degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. American Bible College seems to just be a website. Diploma mill maybe? Not sure which of them he "attended" but neither seems to be reputable. American Bible College American Bible Colleges – Teaching the Practicalities of Christian Ministry I love the disclaimer. quote:Freedom University does not seem to exist. Why would you think he is credible? His education is sketchy at best. I have emailed his church to get some clarification on his degrees and the "schools".Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I find his ARGUMENT credible, his REASONING, his reference to what he found in historical documents, what has been said about the book, who cares who he is? If you won't read Stringer's remarks I have no interest in talking to you further.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Nobody bothered to check his many references to people involved who could have given support to his story. Well, apparently they did. The British chaplain at Alexandria could find no trace of the supposed "Kallinikos" --- "the Greek monk who takes in the Guardian and the Literary Churchman". (See Prothero, A Memoir of Henry Bradshaw.)
he certainly had nothing to gain by his claims He certainly did. Tischendorf had exposed manuscripts forged by Simonides as being forgeries. By continuing to deny this charge, but "admitting" that this one document which Tischendorf upheld was in fact forged by him, he could make out that Tischendorf couldn't tell real from fake documents, and damage Tischendorf's reputation.
was a very accomplished paleographer who in fact had the Greek original of the Shepherd of Hermas that was found in the Codex Sinaiticus ms Could you provide a reference for that? "The Greek original" would have to be the Codex Athous. In what sense did he "have" it? Why would he forge the Shepherd of Hermas anyway?
had the skill for the job Is this an admission that he was in fact a forger?
Nevertheless his story, odd as it is, does seem to hold together as far as it goes. Not really, no. And if you admit he was a forger, then there are more problems still. Such as, why didn't he sell the Codex?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Would like to see the Holy Roman Empire reinstated and all the nations of the world made subservient to him?
Do you know anything about the Holy Roman Empire? Do you think the Pope was the head of state of the HRE?
If the Jesuits weren't out to undermine Protestant nations in order to reestablish the rule of the Pope over them all, we could live quite peaceably with them. But it was their determination to exterminate Protestantism that brought them under the severe laws of England. Bloody Mary had been a last straw, then the Protestants cracked down. But the Jesuits know how to bide their time and work behind the scenes. So now the UK has liberalized some of those old laws. They must think the wolf has changed his ways and now eats grass instead of Protestants -- and Jews and sometimes Muslims and others.
You are batshit crazy.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can't answer all the charges that I've seen answered elsewhere. You are going to go with the popular accounts anyway. The evidence is good for Simonides. The accusation by Tischendorf was exposed as a lie. Why don't you read the whole newspaper exchange. He's quite credible. All the accusations against him are lies. He was no forger, people who should know recognized him as an expert paleographer. But it would take too long to muster all this. Believe what you want. There really is a conspiracy that has the upper hand these days, but you'll never discover it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Pope had power over the kings.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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The Pope had power over the kings. I ask again do you know anything about the Holy Roman Empire? The Emperors tended to control the popes more than the other way around. It was a very complex and changing relationship. But to assert that Popes had power of the empire(feeble an empire as it was) is plain and simply wrong. Please provide something to back this up rather than just throwing out an assertion.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Actually I haven't found anything about his torturing anybody. Perhaps I'm preoccupied and missed it. So would you be so kind as to point me directly to what you are talking about? Thank you. Sorry I only referenced it in Message 653 and Message 659 and have been discussing and quoting it for some time. Newes From Scotland, printed at the end of Daemonologie quote: I guess you're in favor of the Pope running the world? No thanks. I abhor dictators whatever their religious preferences. Apparently - you don't mind as long as they Protestant dictators. More moral relativism. You really like it don't you?
But it was their determination to exterminate Protestantism that brought them under the severe laws of England. And whaddya know - the severe laws resulted in more Catholic unrest, not less.
Bloody Mary had been a last straw, then the Protestants cracked down. So James VI's behaviour was justified because of the actions of people that were mostly no longer alive?
But the Jesuits know how to bide their time and work behind the scenes. Either that, or they are not conspiring.
So now the UK has liberalized some of those old laws. Yes, but in so doing resulted in Protestants breaking stuff (Gordon Riots) and general anti-Catholic antipathy for centuries. Until about the middle of the 20th Century. We're still not there yet, there was Statute Law (Repeals) Act 1969 (around when The Troubles started) and Succession to the Crown Act 2013 was the last one I think. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I can't answer all the charges that I've seen answered elsewhere. You are going to go with the popular accounts anyway. The evidence is good for Simonides. The accusation by Tischendorf was exposed as a lie. Why don't you read the whole newspaper exchange. He's quite credible. All the accusations against him are lies. He was no forger, people who should know recognized him as an expert paleographer. But it would take too long to muster all this. Believe what you want. There really is a conspiracy that has the upper hand these days, but you'll never discover it. But Faith, if Simonides was the real deal, then by all means let's forget about the Codex Sinaiticus. But in that case how about we look at all the documents which we must now believe he didn't forge, including: "quantities of Greek manuscripts professing to be of fabulous antiquity — such as a Homer in an almost prehistoric style of writing, a lost Egyptian historian, a copy of St. Matthew's Gospel on papyrus, written fifteen years after the Ascension (!), and other portions of the New Testament dating from the first century." (Lucky man!) If these aren't forgeries, they're the most important documents in the history of Christianity, and Simonides' defenders are, apparently, all studiously ignoring them. So, of course did the writers of the KJV, but then they produced their text before Simonides made his series of wonderful discoveries. You, on the other hand, have no such excuse. If you believe what you say about Simonides, you should be all agog to read these MS with the greatest veneration, and correct your Biblical scholarship in their light. Instead, you relegate them to a footnote while ... uh ... (1) defending the honor of Simonides (2) in order to deprecate the Codex Sinaiticus (3) in order to deprecate the entire Alexandrian text type (4) in order to elevate the Byzantine text type (5) in order to elevate the Textus Receptus (6) in order to elevate the King James Version of the Bible, a 17th century English translation. Why, then, are the defenders of Simonides not instead momentarily abandoning their obsession with the King James Version to spend at least a few minutes running about shouting "Wow, look, a copy of the Gospel of Matthew from A.D. 48!!!!!" To this the only reply I can think of is the dictum of George Santayana: "A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The reason they aren't excited about new finds with early dates is that there is no way to trust the dates, same as with Geological dating. They're determined by subjective assessment. And even if the dates were accurate, early dates don't prove authenticity, as Burgon argued against Sinaiticus -- apparently not accepting Simonides' claim. I personally find it a tad odd that there are all these new finds cropping up everywhere these days, meaning I think they could very well -- all or some -- be forgeries. But there is no evidence of that of course.
I do realize I have to get off the internet and start collecting evidence for a great variety of things. Wish I felt up to it.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 315 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
And you decided that without a single glance at the basis of Simonides' claims. Well done! Some Christians would have at least taken an interest in an unimpeachably truthful man, and an "expert paleographer" to boot, claiming to have 1st century copies of the Gospels, but not you, you're above such things.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry, I missed that you said they belonged to him. I didn't know he claimed to possess gospel fragments. But apparently he was exonerated of Tischendorf's charge, which I think was about the Shepherd of Hermas, by a reputable collector. But if he was that clever a forger that's what needs to be proved. So he'd claim in public to have made Sinaiticus, why? To get back at Tischendorf?
Never mind, I need to start writing down the evidence I hear. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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