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Author | Topic: Multiculturalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Non sequitur.
Multiculturalism is poisoning Western societies and will debilitate them if attitudes don't change. No society can be successful and free without the ability to maintain order and justice. The same anarchy that has made other cultures so dysfunctional is making its way into Western nations under the guise of "Multiculturalism".
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
On the contrary, I'm challenging you to support how your conclusion follows. Show how multiculturalism is causing the downfall of society.
Non respondisti.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I'm advocating for using the process.
That process is 'the way things are' at the moment.You are advocating for this. Modulous writes:
Isn't it already illegal under existing laws to cut up an 11-year-old girl without anesthetic?
Say some 11 year old girl is discovered to have had Type III FGM performed on her. How do we look at this case individually? If it is not illegal, the police can't get involved, the hospital have no rights to enquire into a persons deep private life, and the government has no business either. Modulous writes:
It definitely has benefits, or don't you like pizza? It may well have harmful effects too. So does water. We have to consider the good with the bad.
Do you think multiculturalism causes any harms, does it promote anything beneficial? Modulous writes:
I have no @#$%ing idea what you're disputing.
Did I dispute this? Modulous writes:
Does it? What about the human rights of the 1000 Maasai women who have experienced it and still advocate it?
After all, it breaches human rights to perform it.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
"Perhaps" not. "Perhaps" you should take your own advice. Perhaps "perhaps" is a useful word after all.
If all you have is the most generic answer to questions I wasn't asking you, perhaps you shouldn't answer? Modulous writes:
The way things are done in science is to say "maybe this" and then test it. What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas.
The way things are done in science is to provide one word meaningless answers to questions which necessarily contained that answer as part of the framing of the question?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
So poison isn't a downfall?
I didn't say it was causing the downfall of society. I said it was poisoning Western society. Jon writes:
No. I think the cases you cited made wise decisions. Sentences should be based on individual circumstances and individual circumstances may sometimes include culture.
Do you think determining sentences based on race, culture, or origin is poisonous? Jon writes:
Do you think water is poisonous?
Do you think tribalism is poisonous?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
The same way we'd test, "Eating pizza is immoral and should be a criminal offense." We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality.
Then how do we test 'FGM is immoral and should be a criminal offense'?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
You can't pick and choose "kinds" of multiculturalism. When immigrants come you get the whole package of their culture, the good and the bad. You can't accept or reject pizza on different principles than you accept or reject anything else.
But this thread isn't about that kind of Multiculturalism.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
Since "you" and "I" (and the people whom you're complaining about) don't agree on what is "better", that statement fails.
Ours are better.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
I'm not saying that what I believe "is" better. Since "my way" is what the courts are doing and what you are complaining about, the onus is on you to demonstrate that your way would be better.
What's lacking is your demonstration that your believed way is better.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
In Canada, we have treaties with the aboriginal peoples in which they are considered to be "nations". They are entitled by those treaties to separate treatment under the law. There is no escaping that explicit multiculturalism. Writing a law that says sentencing considerations should pay "particular attention to aboriginal offenders" is explicit Multiculturalism. And since we are required by law to treat one cultural group differently, we are also morally obligated to at least consider treating other cultural groups differently according to their cultures.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
A thousand Maasai women who have had the procedure disagree with you about FGM. Why don't you respect their opinions?
We don't need to reassess our idea of morality to conclude that eating pizza is okay but that Type III FGM is not.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I personally would object to FGM being done. I also personally object to smoking being done but I don't object to it being "made legal".
... is there anything you personally would object to being made legal for the purposes of cultural diversity? Modulous writes:
But that's a circular argument. The practices of cultural minorities are not in and of themselves "criminal" until laws are enacted that target them. And when you target a practice that is done only by Muslims, it's hard to ignore the implication that you're targeting Muslims. Are you seriously suggesting that you have no existing laws that can address cutting pieces off an eleven-year-old girl without anesthetic?
I was disputing the notion that governments should avoid enacting laws that target the criminal practices of cultural minorities etc. Modulous writes:
So we go from "it breaches human rights" to "maybe a case can be made for it breaching human rights". Nicely tentative.
After all, it breaches human rights to perform it.
ringo writes:
Yes, again the easiest demonstration of this I can find is Article I of the Declaration of Human Rights and German Basic Law, but jurisprudence surrounding rights listed in the ECHR can also make the case, I believe and there are legal minds in the UK that believe they can make a case that even the 'perfectly benign' male circumcision is prohibited by law in the UK with recourse to human rights laws. Does it? Modulous writes:
That's what I'm saying: Potentially an argument can be made. I'm objecting to the position taken by Jon, Tangle and vimesey that there is no potential for argument because they are Absolutely Right™.
So there is potentially an argument that could be made even there.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
As I said, "We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality." Show me. When we agree on a definition of "morality" we can discuss the morality of eating pizza and the morality of FGM.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I don't think making things illegal is the be-all and end-all solution to every problem.
Is there anything you personally would object to being made legal for the purposes of cultural diversity? Modulous writes:
That's what I keep saying.
FGM was probably illegal before we enacted laws specifically about it. Modulous writes:
I didn't start this discussion. I don't know why you persist in criticizing everything I say when we don't really disagree.
If you aren't going to attempt to criticize my actual position, is there any point to this discussion?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
No. That's the opposite of what I'm suggesting. One of the benefits of multiculturalism is that it encourages us to test our own cultural biases. For example, we can look at somebody else's attitude toward FGM to see if it has any validity - and they can look at our attitude to see if it has any validity. The quickest way to find your own biases is to have somebody with different biases point them out to you.
ringo writes:
How? By agreeing our ideas are good with one another? we should be testing our own ideas Modulous writes:
In this case the peer group would be "humans".
Where is the similarity to science?
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