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Author | Topic: Multiculturalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
On the contrary, I'm challenging you to support how your conclusion follows. Show how multiculturalism is causing the downfall of society.
Non respondisti.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Yes, you were mistaken - but my phrasing might have been unclear. "What I am advocating" in that quote is the process by which legislators discuss the status quo and propose measures which may or may not improve it. That process is 'the way things are' at the moment.You are advocating for this. Therefore, my rhetorical question, 'You're advocating for the way things are?' shows no signs of me having been mistaken. No doubt lines will be drawn but there is no "Way". We need to look at individual issues individually. How would we do that? Say some 11 year old girl is discovered to have had Type III FGM performed on her. How do we look at this case individually? If it is not illegal, the police can't get involved, the hospital have no rights to answers about a persons deep private life, and the government has no business either. At best, a private/scientific exploration might be possible, with the consent of the family, which probably won't happen. So we're stuck, right? Is this the same situation if she is raped or sexually abused? Alternatively, if it was illegal, we could examine each case individually and use what we learn to refine the law and supporting legal system. Do you have any personal views about what should be considered the 'line' - with all due philosophical tentativity of course.
There may be some practices that we can't condone and there may be others where we need to hold our noses and accept them. Indeed - but I see you won't put forward your own views for discussion, preferring a hands off and content-free position of 'we should do the wise thing'. Do you think multiculturalism causes any harms, does it promote anything beneficial? Do you want to actually address the topic?
Hence my original suggestion that we need to look at our own values first. Can we live with distasteful "foreign" practices or can we live with ourselves if we suppress them? Did I dispute this? Or did I instead try and talk to you about the specific cases of FGM as a candidate practice we might prefer to suppress over accepting. After all, it breaches human rights to perform it. So surely we should not be ignoring established human rights just because we don't want to upset some cultural groups? Edited by Modulous, : No reason given. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Learning to deal with and understand other cultures is difficult and no culture has all the answers. Of course.
Wasting time on passing laws criminalizing FGM is just utterly stupid and only makes the situation worse Perhaps you could support this argument?
Lets deal with getting drunk drivers off the roads and other important issues. Lets. But unless you propose that DUI is typically performed by a specific cultural group or related groups, it wouldn't really be on topic. You can't be suggesting putting a moratorium on legislation until one specific crime is wiped out permanently can you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
I'm advocating for using the process.
That process is 'the way things are' at the moment.You are advocating for this. Modulous writes:
Isn't it already illegal under existing laws to cut up an 11-year-old girl without anesthetic?
Say some 11 year old girl is discovered to have had Type III FGM performed on her. How do we look at this case individually? If it is not illegal, the police can't get involved, the hospital have no rights to enquire into a persons deep private life, and the government has no business either. Modulous writes:
It definitely has benefits, or don't you like pizza? It may well have harmful effects too. So does water. We have to consider the good with the bad.
Do you think multiculturalism causes any harms, does it promote anything beneficial? Modulous writes:
I have no @#$%ing idea what you're disputing.
Did I dispute this? Modulous writes:
Does it? What about the human rights of the 1000 Maasai women who have experienced it and still advocate it?
After all, it breaches human rights to perform it.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Show how multiculturalism is causing the downfall of society. I didn't say it was causing the downfall of society. I said it was poisoning Western society. Do you think determining sentences based on race, culture, or origin is poisonous? Do you think child sex trafficking is poisonous? Do you think tribalism is poisonous?Love your enemies!
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
"Perhaps" not. "Perhaps" you should take your own advice. Perhaps "perhaps" is a useful word after all.
If all you have is the most generic answer to questions I wasn't asking you, perhaps you shouldn't answer? Modulous writes:
The way things are done in science is to say "maybe this" and then test it. What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas.
The way things are done in science is to provide one word meaningless answers to questions which necessarily contained that answer as part of the framing of the question?
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Jon Inactive Member |
It definitely has benefits, or don't you like pizza? But this thread isn't about that kind of Multiculturalism. You would think that nearly 400 posts in the topic would be crystal clear.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas. Then how do we test 'FGM is immoral and should be a criminal offense'?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
So poison isn't a downfall?
I didn't say it was causing the downfall of society. I said it was poisoning Western society. Jon writes:
No. I think the cases you cited made wise decisions. Sentences should be based on individual circumstances and individual circumstances may sometimes include culture.
Do you think determining sentences based on race, culture, or origin is poisonous? Jon writes:
Do you think water is poisonous?
Do you think tribalism is poisonous?
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Jon Inactive Member |
What I'm saying in this thread is that we should be testing our own ideas, not just pontificating on other people's ideas. We have tested ours. We've also tested theirs. Ours are better. Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
The same way we'd test, "Eating pizza is immoral and should be a criminal offense." We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality.
Then how do we test 'FGM is immoral and should be a criminal offense'?
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Jon writes:
You can't pick and choose "kinds" of multiculturalism. When immigrants come you get the whole package of their culture, the good and the bad. You can't accept or reject pizza on different principles than you accept or reject anything else.
But this thread isn't about that kind of Multiculturalism.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Sentences should be based on individual circumstances and individual circumstances may sometimes include culture. We all know what you believe. What's lacking is your demonstration that your believed way is better.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
You can't pick and choose "kinds" of multiculturalism. When immigrants come you get the whole package of their culture, the good and the bad. You can't accept or reject pizza on different principles than you accept or reject anything else. Not on topic. This thread is about Multiculturalism policies, either explicit or implicit. Letting a con-man off easy because he's a 'Gypsy' is implicit Multiculturalism. Writing a law that says sentencing considerations should pay "particular attention to aboriginal offenders" is explicit Multiculturalism. That's the topic.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
The same way we'd test, "Eating pizza is immoral and should be a criminal offense." We'd need to start with a reassessment of our idea of morality. Of course not. We don't need to reassess our idea of morality to conclude that eating pizza is okay but that Type III FGM is not.Love your enemies!
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