Multiculturalism

Okedokey - when the other threads I'm in die off I'll have a shot at it.

No, that's an extreme effect of multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is simply accepting that people from different backgrounds - race, religion, langugae, economic development, education etc - have differring views on the world and, if we are to live together there has to be tolerance by both sides of those views.That only becomes a problem when one side is unable to tolerate - which is what is happening now. Some sectors of society on both sides of the argument are determined to push their positions to make their points and the real fundamentalists are exploiting it.There's no doubt at all that the extreme Islam position is not tolerable in our society, but we are not innocent of provocation and we are equally guilty of not explaining and enforcing our own values on immigrants wanting to enter our country, to the extent that we've actually encouraged practices that are against our own laws by ignoring them - FGM is an obvious example. We've been frightened of enforcing faster integration - or any integration at all.And then we had these stupid and unnecessary wars that made everything many, many times worse - what the hell were we thinking?.

As usual Faith you've got pretty much all of this wrong.There are important differences between multiculturalism, melting pots and assimilation - in fact all three are quite different ideas. There is absolutely no requirement to give up our values for multiculturalism - that's just your usual bigotry.

'Guilty of multiculturalism' is a strange thing to say. Our countries have always allowed people from other countries to live in them - that's how they function and because we're liberal democracies we tolerate differing beliefs and practices - so long as those practices are legal. We've been naive in thinking that other cultures will adopt to our laws if we don't educate a enforce them. There isn't one. The only way would have been to close our borders at some arbitrary point in our histories and sink into obscurity.

They're not my words - I said this: If you think I'm 'guilty' of that, then I guess I am, but I suspect that you think that multiculturalism is bad and I don't. (Maybe like many Americans use liberalism as a swear word - in the UK it's a longstanding respectable position.) I do however, think that some parts of it are broken and we need to do something about it. I have no problem calling it multiculturalism, because that's what it is. But you want to say that it is all bad and it quite obviously is not. These cultures have rubbed along together for many years without these problems and have added greatly to our society. There have been some mistakes with it though and we need to come to terms with them and work out ways of resolving them because there is no going back. ??? Because people are being murdered perhaps? And we don't, as yet, have a way of stopping it.

We educate more, require learning our language and laws, do not put up with the breaking of laws for cultural reasons, inspect schools to see that they're following the curriculum etc etc The good is cuisine, an appreciation and understanding of difference leading in the long term to political resolution of territorial disputes, the importation of talent and a workforce - our public transport system wouldn't have run without West India immigration after the war and our NHS would collapse without Asian - and other nationalities - doctors and nurses.And where do you think the USA would be without immigration of its huddled masses?

You're still unnecessarily hung up on the word 'multiculuralism' as though it it was some sort of talisman for evil - it's not, it's a description of an idea which has a large number of aspects, only a few of which are problematic.There's no way out of this, we have to work ways of living together it's the only way forward.

Of course we can,mwe did it with Christianity. You're just expecting it to happen tomorrow and of course it won't.I've just watched the Sam Harris link and of course I agree with much of it - as I've posted what he has to say myself - but this idea that liberals believe what he says they believe is just silly. Or, more likely, the USshas its own definition of what a liberal is, like it seems to have it's own definition of what multiculturalism is - ie both are extreme and bad.

I have nothing more than what I have already said. What is your answer?

But you neglected to include a solution. I think they have been very effective, the vast majority of Muslims in Western societies now share our values - that is why those that don't are causing a problem. They are concerned that their primitive version is getting diluted.But, in any case, would you expect such a change to happen overnight? The western enlightenment ooh centuries.

It's not really necessary to cherry pick so outrageously. Those same polls also said that 99% thought the bombers in the UK were wrong and 91% feel loyal to Britain.The Sharia law stuff is equally outrageous, most Muslims actually use their laws in the UK now, quite legally to solve disputes between neighbours and inside families - this does not in anyway suggest that they support stoning, flogging and beheading for trivial 'offences'.If you polled 500 evangelical Christians you would find all 500 of them also believe homosexual acts to be immoral - it's a primitive bloody religion what do you expect?We know that many Muslims in Western democracies are conflicted and that some of them have values which most of the rest of the UK find abhorrent but the overwhelming majority comply with our laws and are adjusting. We need to work harder to make the process of integration work faster.I'm still waiting for your solution.

So what?

What is your solution? Time to shit or get off the pot.

What??? How has Islam got a hold in Europe? Be specific.

Total cock.You claimed that Islam had 'a hold' on Europe and when asked for evidence you list a couple of unreferenced examples of criminal activity in a couple of French cities. Marseille is not under siege nor is it burning - I was there six months ago I think I would have noticed.For Europe to be "in the hold of Islam", I want to see evidence of Sharia law on the statute book in all European countries, the repeal of the Human Rights Act and public floggings for Parisian adultery in Place de Bastille - you'd have 2/3 of Paris under the whip.You're truly bloody amazing.