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Author | Topic: Still small voice of God found | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: It is one thing to get to mountains from mindless and probably dimensionless particles, but it is another step further to get to sentient beings with an understanding of morality. Sure it can. A mountain is complex but nobody suggests that it had to be "designed" by anything but aimless natural processes.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just the fact that you label my belief as fantasy puts you at the same level I am at.
Christianity is not a fantasy. Perhaps the Humanist Manifesto folks are also sincere, but in my opinion they too have a fantasy in that they think humanity will solve its problems without need of a God. Welcome to EvC, by the way. We usually disagree here...and that makes it fun! I will help you start a topic. I set you up Here. Feel free to add to it or edit it as you wish. One of us will promote it for you after you respond to it. Edited by Phat, : added new information.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's an empty claim. In fact, mindless evolution does a better job of explaining morality than religion does. As often as not, it's the mind that gets in the way of morality. And especially, it's the many different "voices of God" that get in the way of morality.
It is one thing to get to mountains from mindless and probably dimensionless particles, but it is another step further to get to sentient beings with an understanding of morality.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: That's an empty claim. In fact, mindless evolution does a better job of explaining morality than religion does. As often as not, it's the mind that gets in the way of morality. And especially, it's the many different "voices of God" that get in the way of morality. Of course I don't believe that evolution is mindless. Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not. I believe that it does. Also I believe that there is only one God and it is kinda up to us to sort out what He desires for us in the midst of all those other voices.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2419 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
You can delete the other thread.
Perhaps they are sincere? What are you trying to imply here? That they know god exists, but are using the guise of helping others as a method to convince people to reject him? You realise it's not just your pet jesus they reject, right?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You can delete the other thread. We close them---we never actually delete threads. My apologies for assuming that you wanted to start one. I have since done as you suggested and started A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto.
Perhaps they are sincere? What are you trying to imply here? That they know god exists, but are using the guise of helping others as a method to convince people to reject him? You realise it's not just your pet jesus they reject, right? i am aware of what they reject and address it in my new thread. Perhaps we can discuss it there.(Once someone promotes it) Again...welcome to EvC. Edited by Phat, : spellcheckChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved Please point to an single unnatural process that is involved.
but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not. Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise.
I believe that it does. Yup, that's all you have. And it doesn't bother you at all that that's all you have. But it should. Nevertheless, you're a product of the new age. You're forced to accept knowledge. Your beliefs are liberal Christian. Soon, like the majority of Northen Europe those beliefs will generalise further; that's progress. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
Sure all we can see are the natural processes. There would be no discernible evidence as to whether the process was intelligently created or not. We just see the changes and in general we can see how those changes happened. We would have no way of knowing whether or not there is an intelligent root cause so in the end all we have are our conclusions or beliefs. Yet we have enormous quantities of evidence that it's entirely a natural process and absolutely none that it's not. Unless, of course, you can tell us otherwise. Actually the fact that we can use science and biology to intelligently find a natural process is indicative that there is an intelligence that is responsible for the process, but I have a hunch you won't see it that way. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2419 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined:
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There is no reason to believe that our conscience is anything other than the name we give to our reasoning process while asking ourselves a moral question. The fact that everyone has a different process and reasoning abilities explains rather nicely the variation in the choices we make.
The way I experience thought is basically talking to myself in my head. I know this is all subjective but I'd be interested to see if/how much our experiences vary in this regard. If my regular thoughts are my own and my thoughts during my 'conscience' reasoning process are not, why do they feel identical? The thoughts that may be attempting to rationalise the the immoral option are depicted as coming from a little devil while the thoughts leading me to the moral option are depicted as coming from an angel. I would now like to apply the angel/devil theory to a recent dilemma I faced.I was angered by the arrogance and hypocrisy displayed by Phat and the devil popped up on my shoulder. "Rip him a new one! Don't hold back" he said.* I'd had a few beers and I began to reply. My tone was much the same as the condescending tone that Phat had used. I had several unnecessary insults in there. I stopped writing for a moment. The angel popped up now. "Don't be so harsh. If you really believed in fairy tales, you'd likely get offended on behalf of a supreme being and reject a movement that actually aligns very closely with Jesus' teachings on that basis alone" she said.* So I went back through and settled with just labelling his fantastical beliefs as fantasy. * I don't remember the exact thoughts but they were along those lines. In this scenario, the 'still small voice of god' was telling me to back off a bit and it seemed to feel sorry for Phat, that he wholeheartedly believes something that is almost surely false. I don't mean to pick on Phat, I just thought it was a good way to explain why, to me at least, the idea that god is driving our consicences is silly. Nor are our 'conscience' thoughts anything different from normal thoughts.
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Riggamortis Member (Idle past 2419 days) Posts: 167 From: Australia Joined: |
GDR writes: Actually the fact that we can use science and biology to intelligently find a natural process is indicative that there is an intelligence that is responsible for the process because . . . . . . Italics added by me. The reason only the faithful will accept your statement is simple. It is incomplete. As it stands it is a baseless assertion, fill in the blanks and maybe we'll have something to talk about.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Sure all we can see are the natural processes. There would be no discernible evidence as to whether the process was intelligently created or not. You keep conflating issues. We both know that we were created by our parents. We know the process. We both know that evolution was the force that created the human species. We know that the brain and the endocrine system is responsible for our thought and emotional processes. Now we can actually see the specific parts of the brain that handles the emotional reaction that we call empathy. We both agree that we don't (yet) know how the entire process began but for the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter. You keep saying that god intervenes in earthy matters routinely. Yet we see no evidence of it. I think you claim that the feelings you have that causes you to feel sorry for other people - empathy - is god intervening. Have I got that right? This 'still small voice' is god 'talking' to each of us personally. Is that what you belive?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
If it helps, let's be specific, when you see a picture like this, is it god telling you to feel sorry for this person and want to help or is it a universal human reflex that's built into us - something we can't help?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: That is like saying though that because we can see a generator producing electricity and observe the flow of electrons and understand what how that generator works, that we can forget about the fact that the generator itself required a source of energy in the first place.
We both know that we were created by our parents. We know the process. We both know that evolution was the force that created the human species. We know that the brain and the endocrine system is responsible for our thought and emotional processes. Now we can actually see the specific parts of the brain that handles the emotional reaction that we call empathy. Tangle writes: Partly, but of course we are influenced by life’s experiences and what others say and do etc. However ultimately yes, I do believe that the ability to love unselfishly and even sacrificially ultimately can be traced back to God. We both agree that we don't (yet) know how the entire process began but for the purposes of this thread it doesn't matter. You keep saying that god intervenes in earthy matters routinely. Yet we see no evidence of it. I think you claim that the feelings you have that causes you to feel sorry for other people - empathy - is god intervening. Have I got that right? This 'still small voice' is god 'talking' to each of us personally. Is that what you belive?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: That is like saying though that because we can see a generator producing electricity and observe the flow of electrons and understand what how that generator works, that we can forget about the fact that the generator itself required a source of energy in the first place. Yes, it's exactly like that. At the moment I'm trying to get you to talk about what's happening at the lightbulb - the generator is a different problem altogether. I'm allowing you a god given generator for the process of evolution, I'm trying to understand why you seem to be talking about empathy being driven by a different and supernatural process.
Partly, but of course we are influenced by life’s experiences and what others say and do etc. However ultimately yes, I do believe that the ability to love unselfishly and even sacrificially ultimately can be traced back to God. Traced back to god directly - ie he's intervening minute by minute with our lives? or indirectly by kicking off evolution billions of years ago on a path that he knew would give us these traits? When we look at that picture, what do you think is happening to us? Are we reacting naturally or is there supernatural intervention making us feel sorry for the guy andmaking us want to help him? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So you're just preaching Intelligent Design, which is just another form of creationism.
Certainly we can see that there are natural processes involved but we cannot tell whether or not evolution has an intelligent agent as its cause or not.
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