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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Disgusting Berkeley Riots | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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One report I heard described a peaceful protest that was then infiltrated by over a hundred out-of-town "agitators." A common tactic to discredit peaceful protests. It only takes a handful and the media is all over it like the hairpiece on Trumps head. The news cycles show the violence and not the peaceful protests. There are groups that admit to doing this because either (a) they don't think peaceful protest will work and isn't powerful enough of a message, or (b) because they want to break things and blame someone else.
They cancelled the speaker. Clearly the violence was aimed at shutting people up they disagree with. I guess this is the "Anti Free Speech Movement" in contrast to the 60s protests. They cancelled the speech to prevent violence. Sadly that didn't work. A better protest would have been to buy up all the tickets and leave the auditorium empty. It's been done. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh, fun! Ah yes, yes indeedy, this topic pulled out a true wacko lefty response, as I thought it probably would.
I'm on board with the idea that riots and violence are bad. I don't condone them. Perhaps you could venture a thought about how so many of the anti-Trump "protests" have in fact become violent?
But Coyote specifically and directly, and perhaps Faith more indirectly seems to be suggesting that some "opposition" speech was missed that ought to have been heard. this has me blinking wildly. What on earth can you mean? Milo Yiannopoulos was invited by the university to give a talk. People had come to hear him. Is there some special justification needed that he had a "right to be heard?" Such a strange opinion suggests that "some" people really don't deserve free speech? Such as people who disagree with the darling opinions of the Left? Well, at least UC Berkeley had the guts to invite him in spite of such a perfectly righteously properly Constitutional opinion as that people who share his views should be hit over the head and thrown to the ground and stomped on.( I am really curious about what it is the Milo Yiannopoulos has to say that we all missed the opportunity to hear. Since when does someone's free speech depend on anyone's having an opportunity to hear it? Which is what you seem to be implying. You mean if what he has to say isn't something you find to your liking we should consider that there's no loss if the opportunity is missed? What about those who came to hear him? They don't matter I suppose. That wouldn't be any surprise, since nobody's opinion but their own matters to the anti-Trumpers.
I ask that question because history does not allow me to accept without question purity of motives. If anyone wants me to cite some history, I'd be happy to oblige. Eh? Now you seem to have lurched from a suspiciously fascistic suggestion that perhaps "some" people, even some invited to speak on a college campus, really should be denied the right, from that position, I say, to this utterly incomprehensible non sequitur about "purity of motives." Excuse me? WHOSE "purity of motives" are you talking about, and what does history have to do with it? The only relevant history I can think of offhand, to what you have been suggesting so far, might be the Nazis' suppression of the rights of their citizens to speak a political opinion in someone's hearing. Yes, the Nazis do seem to keep coming up in this context. Hard to find a more appropriate analogy to violent attempts to shut someone up.
I'm also amused at the very low level of action that is required to draw folks to call other folks Nazi's. Eh? Violent attacks intended to silence a political opinion are a "low level" action that shouldn't be compared to the Nazis, cuz why? Again it's a rather apt comparison it seems to me. Perhaps you have another word for it? How about Stalinism? Maoism?
Apparently promoting ideas regarding white supremacy does not invoke such ideas, while protesting against the promotion of those ideas is right up there with operating ovens for humans. I see. Yes, just accuse him of "white supremacy" and there you have your clever Lefty propaganda to turn HIM into a Nazi. Oh, and yes, call a violent riot a "protest." (You don't REALLY think "riots are bad" as your title claims, it depends on who's being beaten bloody, right?) Ah yes. The Left knows how to sling the lies to make an honest conservative into a Nazi. But we can't call the violent protest intended to suppress him what it is, fascism. I never heard of Milo Yiannopoulous before this incident. What I've found out about him is that he's a nicelooking blond gay man who is an editor for Breitbart, considers himself to be a libertarian, identifies with his Jewish grandmother, has a reputation for being funny, and says he's often enjoyed lampooning white supremacists. He's even had to take legal action against the liars who call him a white supremacist, such as Glamour magazine. Does it ever occur to you that these accusations that are so freely slung by the Left at Trump and Trump supporters and conservatives and libertarians, are being invented by some Leftists somewhere off the radar and flung into the public arena for political purposes? They are lies, there are lots of them out there. Or call it "fake news." Very reminiscent of fascism.
I'm also amused by the association of Berkeley Republicans with this crackpot Amused? Crackpot?
In short. I smell hypocrisy this morning, and the smell is not coming entirely from the west coast. Hypocrisy? Ah another good PC slur. Me on the other hand, I smell Leftist fascism. Just for reference here's this "white supremacist crackpot" giving a talk he was able to give in Colorado despite protests there too. Here's your opportunity to hear what he had to say, since you expressed curiosity about that. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Could have been the work of "outside agitators." Perhaps there will be some information coming about that.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Violent attacks intended to silence a political opinion are a "low level" action that shouldn't be compared to the Nazis, cuz why? Because the defining characteristic of Nazis - the evil that we most associate with them - is the horrifying and systematic murder on an industrial scale of 6 million innocent Jewish/gay/disabled/Romany people. That's Nazism to most people. Of course they suppressed free speech and did numerous other immoral things, but the reason they have rightly acquired such a universal hatred as recent history's most evil group is the deliberate and systematic genocide of 6m people. They were the police - the army - the entire apparatus of state - there was no-one to turn to when they came for you to send you off to the gas chambers. The despair and misery they caused is unfathomable That is what a Nazi is. Every time you equate someone who does something far less wrong, with a Nazi, you normalise that little bit more what the Nazis did. There is a very genuine debate to be had about what the rioters did, and the extent of free speech. But leave the Nazis out of it - it leaves you and Coyote with a severe credibility issue - and is insulting to the memories of those 6m and the unimaginable horror they suffered.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Could have been the work of "outside agitators." Perhaps there will be some information coming about that. Ever since the 60's it is well known that police and FBI infiltrate groups and foment violence. The worked to discredit MLK and other rights leaders running peaceful non-violent protests. Several have been identified as recently as the Occupy movement.
... Perhaps there will be some information coming about that. quote: That red symbol being spraypainted is the symbol for anarchists. See their facebook page So we can thank Trump for inspiring more people to turn to the dark side.
... Perhaps there will be some information coming about that. Actually peaceful non-violent protesters do not condone the anarchy group/s in any way shape or form, because the ruin the value of the peaceful non-violent protests by distracting people/media/etc away from the issue of the protest to make it about violence.
quote: Sadly. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : addedby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Violent attacks intended to silence a political opinion are a "low level" action that shouldn't be compared to the Nazis, cuz why? Because the defining characteristic of Nazis - the evil that we most associate with them - is the horrifying and systematic murder on an industrial scale of 6 million innocent Jewish/gay/disabled/Romany people. That's Nazism to most people. Yes, well my preferred term is "fascist" rather than Nazi although I think Nazi applies well enough, as I explained.
Of course they suppressed free speech and did numerous other immoral things, but the reason they have rightly acquired such a universal hatred as recent history's most evil group is the deliberate and systematic genocide of 6m people. Eleven million. Six million Jews and the rest were Slavs, Communists, Christians and the like.
They were the police - the army - the entire apparatus of state - there was no-one to turn to when they came for you to send you off to the gas chambers. The despair and misery they caused is unfathomable. That is what a Nazi is. Every time you equate someone who does something far less wrong, with a Nazi, you normalise that little bit more what the Nazis did. LET ME POINT OUT that it is the Left calling Trump supporters by such names that has launched this whole line of thought. We are answering because we are not the Nazis, THEY ARE. That is one thing Milo mentions in his talk, that we are being called fascists when we are not acting anything like fascists but they are. Their expressed opinions are fascist -- shutting us up is what they want to do. An amazing number of MAINTSTREAM commentators actually have called for Trump to be assassinated. Blowing up the white house is a fantasy of Madonna's. Listen to them. IN A SANE WORLD NOT DOMINATED BY BIASED LEFTIST LYING MEDIA THAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED TREASON AND SHE WOULD BE ARRESTED. Their opinions are all fascist, anti-free speech, anti-Constitutional freedoms, but they justify them on their false claim that WE are the fascists. They think nothing of calling a conservative or liberatarian a "white supremacist" which is as good as calling us Nazis, which they do on other occasions anyway, and what does that do but whip up hatred against us?. Against US, who are NOT in any sense whatever Nazis, fascists, racists or white supremacists. Again, THEY ARE. That is how THEY are acting and they DO deserve these epithets. You have to realize that it is quite possible for the Left to be the fascists. The distinguishing mark is NOT THE POLITICAL CONTENT, it's the violent suppressive attitude that even includes wanting to kill the opponent. The protests against Trump have pretty much all turned violent, and at least verbally accusatory and threatening FALSELY. I mentioned five documented incidents of violence by Trump haters on Trump supporters, and so far I haven 't seen one similar incident the other way around.; Leftists infiltrated Trump rallies and provoked violence. Trump supporters are not violent, they are the victims of the violence. And a lot of it is based completely on lies. There is not one racist plank in Trump's platform, there is no xenophobia, and he EXPLICITLY supported the LGBT cause, yet he and his supporters are called homophobes. The lying PROPAGANDA IS ALL ON THE LEFT AGAINST TRUMP SUPPORTERS AND SO IS THE VIOLENCE. Truth requires that the traditional definition of fascism be rethought. AND, speaking of the police and the government as the fascist element, the police made no arrests from the violent riots at Berkeley. It is very possible for the LEFTIST establishment, which all of them in Berkeley are, to be the fascist force. And the medie wield incredible power with their biased reports that make us into the villains in the minds of the public. Calling us the fascists is a PROPAGANDA WEAPON. We are resisting while we still have the time to resist.
There is a very genuine debate to be had about what the rioters did, and the extent of free speech. But leave the Nazis out of it - it leaves you and Coyote with a severe credibility issue - and is insulting to the memories of those 6m and the unimaginable horror they suffered. Sorry, even your reasonable opinion is being used on the wrong side of this argument. There are global level powers and government and police powers that are out to get conservatives, people who want national sovereignty and don't want to be run by leftist billionaires. The Jews are also being targeted AGAIN though, by THEM, not US. Israel is always the scapegoat while Islam which is a real threat to world peace is supported by the Left. The views that would have applied fifty years ago don't always apply now. There are clever devils working feverishly to control the world and they don't care which political view has the upper hand, but right now they are pushing the Left. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
Huh? Evidence, please.
An amazing number of MAINTSTREAM commentators actually have called for Trump to be assassinated.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LET ME POINT OUT that it is the Left calling Trump supporters by such names that has launched this whole line of thought. We are answering because we are not the Nazis, THEY ARE... Technically a far right ideology is nazi while a far left ideology is closer akin to communism/socialism. Don't let the "socialism" in national socialism fool you. The far left is more closely related to communism than to nationalism. Just sayin... Personally, I think that either extreme can be dangerous. I am a political moderate myself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't really see much of this supposed condemnation of the violence from the Left, or from the media etc. The anarchists' views seem to be popular, even if the violence is tepidly decried.
We don't really hear much from the Left denouncing the violence of the protestors, decrying the violent speech of those who want Trump to be assassinated, the white house blown up etc., and it seems to me we often hear sympathy with the violent demonstrations instead, even characterizing Trump supporters more or less as deserving it, because after all we're evil just as the anarchists think we are. What I posted about media characterizing Yiannopoulos as a white supremacist is the usual thing from the Left, and very very little objection to anything the Left does. The anarchists should have been arrested. Why weren't they?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
That is clearly the intent--to shut Milo and all others like him down at all costs Not at all costs, obviously. Otherwise they'd wait for him to get on stage and they'd shoot him or knife him, club him to death or something. Is the tactic they're employing actually going to be effective in the medium or long term? The brownshirts had hundreds of thousands of members into the millions before Hitler disbanded them. This membership was concentrated primarily to one particular area of Germany - it was high density. They seem to have much fewer numbers, using much stupider methods (probably as there is no central organisation of politically canny ex-soldiers directing them) - can they really do anything other than raise tensions and validate their enemy's rhetoric?
After a series of riots, how many campus administrations will even entertain the thought of Milo or others like him speaking there? If Trump defunds universities because crazies on the internet start violence at university protests - then I expect that'll be be a bigger deterrent than a minor riot. 100s of thousands in damages vs 100s of millions in federal funding. I know which one would be more important. So why would Universities take the risk of losing some or all of their funding if the President will essentially fine them if trouble breaks out.
That's the goal of the rioters--raw power through violence. If you can't see that it's your shortcoming, not mine. Brownshirts are among us again. Read some history. In fighting the presumed Nazis, the progs have become the Nazis all over again. Yes you said that already. You didn't however, answer my questions raised when you said it last. Responding to arguments in political threads has never really been your style, so I shouldn't be surprised.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't really see much of this supposed condemnation of the violence from the Left, or from the media etc. The anarchists' views seem to be popular, even if the violence is tepidly decried. And you don't believe me when I say the media is biased against non-violent leftists and doesn't show them or talk about them, waiting for the violence to occur before they consider it "newsworthy" ... One of the first protests I was involved in was a peaceful sit-in for minimum wages at the university to apply to the black housecleaners. The local news was called and informed, and they asked if there was any violence, no? let us know when there is and we'll send a camera around ...
We don't really hear much from the Left denouncing the violence of the protestors, decrying the violent speech of those who want Trump to be assassinated, the white house blown up etc., and it seems to me we often hear sympathy with the violent demonstrations instead, even characterizing Trump supporters more or less as deserving it, because after all we're evil just as the anarchists think we are. Well you won't see it on Faux Noise Nutwerk or any other of your "newsy" sources, it doesn't fit their agenda. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK, I guess I missed your saying that the media is biased against non-violent Leftists. That's interesting if so, but then you'd think I'd hear about them from the conservative media I listen to most, and I don't. They could call into many conservative talk shows and protest the media bias against them. Conservatives would be happy to know this.
abe: OR, they could write their complaint all over the internet. I'd see it, the conservative internet would pick it up etc. Why isn't that happening? It tends to contradict your claim. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9199 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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Why would leftists complain to conservative media?
The conservative media have no desire or incentive to report anything that would paint the left in a good light. Faux is a propaganda organ not a journalistic organization. Edited by Theodoric, : dropped a tFacts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I see. Yes, just accuse him of "white supremacy" and there you have your clever Lefty propaganda to turn HIM into a Nazi. IBut I am well aware of the propaganda spread by Yiannopoulos. I note that your response to me about the content is just to provide a video without any summary. I am well aware of that he mouths hate speech. But apparently, that's cool with alt-right leaning folk. Example stuff published under Milo's byline at Breitbart
quote: Apparently, this kind of crap is what you consider "conservative". No Thanks. The riots are giving Milo positive press he would never have gotten elsewhere. Beyond being wrong, the riots and destruction were a tactical error as well. However, attempts to blame the university are misguided. It might even be that the students themselves are not the ones who committed the unruly acts.
Eh? Now you seem to have lurched from a suspiciously fascistic suggestion that perhaps "some" people, To be clear, my suspicion is about the motives of you and Coyote. And by when I mention "history" I am referring to folks posting history here. I apologize for my lack of directness, but I am trying to be less confrontational this year. I don't trust you to tell me why Milo should have been allowed to speak because I've never seen you stand up for anything but alt-right speech.
Eh? Violent attacks intended to silence a political opinion are a "low level" action that shouldn't be compared to the Nazis, cuz why? Someone has already addressed this question, and I also addressed it in my post, so I'll be brief. Suppression of free speech is among the smaller things the Nazi's were guilty of. The Nazi's murdered 6 million jews and also millions of other people they considered undesirables. On their way to doing that, they scapegoated minorities for Germany's real problems in order to make it easier to exterminate folk. It would have been a bloody good idea for folks in Germany to have protested that kind of speech, but protesting did not win the day there. And then you turn around and accuse folks of being Nazi's for protesting hate speech? Whether or not you agree with my description, surely you can see the irony in what I describe. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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OK, I guess I missed your saying that the media is biased against non-violent Leftists. ... What did you see reported about the rallies that Bernie had? I attended one in a park in downtown Providence RI and not a single TV station covered it.
OR, they could write their complaint all over the internet. ... There are pictures on the internet, go look for Bernie Rally ...
... That's interesting if so, but then you'd think I'd hear about them from the conservative media I listen to most, and I don't. They could call into many conservative talk shows and protest the media bias against them. Conservatives would be happy to know this. ... I'd see it, the conservative internet would pick it up etc. Why isn't that happening? It tends to contradict your claim. Or your assumption that conservative media would cover it is false. Why should they give you information that would let you know there were alternatives to the narrative they provide? You appear to live in a conservative sanitized bubble faith, and you are told to distrust anything that might contradict the conservative narrative. This is why I say your (conservative narrative) claim that the media is left biased is wrong, it is status quo corporatist biased, ignoring the far right and the progressive left. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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