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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Tangle
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Posts: 5048
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 376 of 936 (805849)
04-21-2017 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by CRR
04-21-2017 6:23 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
CRR writes:

Consider a soap bubble and a ball of lead, both exactly the same size. Which will fall faster? The difference in weight here is enough to produce an observable difference. The soap bubble falls quite slowly. I have seen this.

To coin a phrase "Oh, good grief"

What is it with you creationists that make you so disingenuous? is it because you have no winning arguments of your own that you have to do this constant denial of known science?

Bubbles with more often RISE in the air. I'll leave you to work out the atmospheric and physical properties of each to work out why.

In Galileo's experiment the effects of air resistance was small for both balls and the difference in how fast they fell was not discernible with the experimental equipment used.

EXACTLY. it was an incorrect 'common sense' assumption.

Evolution has many failed predictions to its credit! See here
https://sites.google.com/site/darwinspredictions/
Depending of course on how you define evolution, and that is the topic of this thread.

Well, despite my better judgement and breaking the rules of this site I had a look. I skipped to the conclusion and note that the use of the word "evolutionist" puts this as a creationist document which is not a good sign. But this comment made me certain that this is a pile of garbage

This raises the question of how evolution fares without the metaphysics. That is, how does evolution compare with the scientific evidence? Evolutionary theory holds that the biological world (and more generally the cosmos as well), arose from the interplay of chance and natural law. In other words, evolution holds that the species arose spontaneously.

Evolutionists believe that the cosmos and the biological world arose spontaneously indeed.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss these claims

Edited by Tangle, : Quote Code error fixed


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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Pressie
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Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 377 of 936 (805853)
04-21-2017 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bkelly
11-14-2005 4:10 PM


After all of this, I gathered that the word evolution means change over time.

Not being a biologist, I also gathered that evolutionary theory involves genetic variation coupled with mainly natural selection. Although other forms of selection can also be involved.

From what I gathered was that the origin of the Universe or the origin of the earth or the sun of Pluto or the origin of life or the origin of rocks can't be considered part of evolutionary theory.

Just the origins of the variety of life we observe today.

Being a geo, that makes sense to me.


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 Message 1 by bkelly, posted 11-14-2005 4:10 PM bkelly has not yet responded

    
dwise1
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Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 378 of 936 (805878)
04-21-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by CRR
04-21-2017 4:56 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Actually this is what happens.

No, that is from other factors. The simple counter-intuitive still remains that gravity does not treat objects of different weights any differently! The "common sense" answer that gravity treats objects of different weights differently is wrong!

As is the case of that metal ball rolling down a spiral track. Common sense says that when it drops off the end it will continue to move in a spiral trajectory. It doesn't!

In every case, including the ones affected by other forces, we need to discover what is actually happening instead of letting "common sense" mislead us to false conclusions as you had just done.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by herebedragons, posted 04-21-2017 12:28 PM dwise1 has responded
 Message 412 by caffeine, posted 04-22-2017 5:05 PM dwise1 has responded

    
herebedragons
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Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 379 of 936 (805899)
04-21-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by dwise1
04-21-2017 10:24 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
The simple counter-intuitive still remains that gravity does not treat objects of different weights any differently! The "common sense" answer that gravity treats objects of different weights differently is wrong!

A minor technical quibble, since I know exactly what you mean. And I could be wrong (physics is not my strong suit by any means) but...

Gravity DOES treat objects of different mass differently that is why different masses have different weights. Gravity applies more force to a more massive object that to one of lesser mass. That is why the fact that they accelerate equally is so counter-intuitive. The more force you apply to an object the faster it should accelerate, that is the "common sense" prediction. But common sense often fails and can not be trusted to draw scientific conclusions.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by dwise1, posted 04-21-2017 10:24 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9916
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 380 of 936 (805912)
04-21-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by CRR
04-21-2017 6:23 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Consider a soap bubble and a ball of lead, both exactly the same size. Which will fall faster? The difference in weight here is enough to produce an observable difference. The soap bubble falls quite slowly. I have seen this

Yes, but the difference is not an effect of gravity, is it? The difference is instead due to forces which act in opposition to gravity.

And perhaps you are both wrong. The force of gravity is proportional to the mass, so the heavier mass experiences the greater force. However, larger masses have more inertia and thus accelerate less for a given force. The result is that the acceleration due to gravity for two different masses is the same.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by CRR, posted 04-21-2017 6:23 AM CRR has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9916
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 381 of 936 (805914)
04-21-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
04-20-2017 3:32 PM


Re: A creationist model in progress
Accuracy ISN'T my intent

Preach it sister. Word to the mother...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 382 of 936 (805934)
04-21-2017 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
04-20-2017 4:14 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
The Pedantry Mob has been having at the idea of the Second Law and since I'm interested in the facts and could not care less about such nitpicking distinctions I have substituted "entropy" as an attempt to say what I mean: LOSS rather than GAIN in all kinds of physical and biological systems.

That would prevent growth. I've witnessed growing; the above cannot be correct.

ABE:

In Message 339, you wrote:

the point is that it does amount to a coherent model that could be applied.

That's fine, but even Last Thursdayism amounts to a coherent model that could be applied. So you're not really saying much, or anything really.

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 4:14 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 383 of 936 (805937)
04-21-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by CRR
04-21-2017 4:56 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
CRR writes:

Common sense is just as good, and probably better, that the evolutionary hypothesis at making testable predictions that can then be scientifically examined; which is what I said earlier.

Let's see if that claim stands up.

We can find fossils with a combination of dinosaur and bird features. We can find fossils with a combination of reptile and mammal features. Does common sense say that we should also find fossils with a combination of mammal and bird features?

The cytochrome c gene is shared by humans, mice, and birds. The human and mouse gene differs by 10%. The human and chicken gene differs by 20%. What should the difference be between the chicken and mouse gene, and why?

When we compare the same gene between a human and mouse, what does common sense say we should see when we compare exons and introns? Should we share more DNA in introns than in exons? Should the differences be the same between exons and introns?

What do you say?


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 Message 373 by CRR, posted 04-21-2017 4:56 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 384 of 936 (805938)
04-21-2017 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by CRR
04-21-2017 6:23 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
CRR writes:

Consider a soap bubble and a ball of lead, both exactly the same size. Which will fall faster?

In a vacuum? They will fall at the same rate, assuming the bubble doesn't pop. All objects experience the same acceleration due to gravity. This idea violates common sense which uses everyday experiences that include air resistance and density differences.

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable.


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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1577
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 385 of 936 (805943)
04-21-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Taq
04-21-2017 3:46 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable.

I like this statement! May I use it in my signature?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 3:46 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7140
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 386 of 936 (805946)
04-21-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Tanypteryx
04-21-2017 3:57 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Tanypteryx writes:

I like this statement! May I use it in my signature?

I humbly grant my permission.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-21-2017 3:57 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 387 of 936 (805948)
04-21-2017 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by herebedragons
04-21-2017 12:28 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Gravity DOES treat objects of different mass differently that is why different masses have different weights. Gravity applies more force to a more massive object that to one of lesser mass.

Quibblance equivalent to my stating in another forum that there is no mass lost in a fire because every atom is accounted for in the chemical formulae for a fire. Someone quibbled that there is a minute amount of mass in chemical bonds, so when they're broken that mass is lost. However, that loss is so minute that it is safe to ignore it. Since I only had high school chemistry where we didn't get into that, I assumed that it is covered in more advanced chemistry classes.

In astronomy and/or physics class we kind of talked about your quibble, though not really. Gravitational force is:

F = GMm/d2

where G is the Gravitational Constant, M is the mass of the larger body, m the mass of the smaller, and d is the distance between their centers.

If M >> m, then m = 1
(if M is very much greater than m, then m = 1)

So the only time that you use m is if M and m are not too significantly different. In the case of two objects being dropped towards the earth's surface, the mass of the earth is significantly greater than the mass of either object, so they're effectively the same mass, 1, and the gravitational force working on both objects would be the same.

QEF
(quod erat fudged)


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 388 of 936 (805949)
04-21-2017 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Taq
04-21-2017 4:12 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
It is a good statement. I shall add it to my quotes collection.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Taq, posted 04-21-2017 4:12 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9916
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 389 of 936 (805950)
04-21-2017 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by New Cat's Eye
04-21-2017 3:01 PM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
That would prevent growth. I've witnessed growing; the above cannot be correct.

Growing, and fetal development, etc. The second law is about the total change in entropy including all systems with which energy is exchanged, and not whether entropy in some particular object must increase or decrease. In this case, we have the sun to account for when we what to insist that any given process on earth must produce an increase in entropy.

Have a refrigerator in your house? Where do all of those low entropy ice cubes come from?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2017 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2017 11:55 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9916
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 390 of 936 (805951)
04-21-2017 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Faith
04-20-2017 4:14 AM


Re: An Alternative consistent and coherent model
Entropy is a result of the Fall, an expression of the Death that came to all creation

That is just as clearly a bunch of nonsense. And it is not a matter of pedantry. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Here is a simple question for you. Did plants die before the Fall?

Are you aware that the second law is a statement about entropy? If the second law existed, then so did entropy.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Faith, posted 04-20-2017 4:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:46 PM NoNukes has responded

    
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