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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 3037
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 211 of 224 (797282)
01-16-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

In particular, there cannot simultaneously be free will and free action and yet have a universe where no one can elect to do evil.

Why not?

I suppose it depends on where you put the limits on "free will."

Free will certainly does not mean you can choose to do anything.
Since I cannot choose to levitate.
I cannot choose to walk through a brick wall.
I cannot choose to force someone to respect or love me.

Do I still have free will?

What if evil was restricted, but you could still freely choose many different various good things?
Where is this invisible line that removes free will when evil goes away?
Where is it right now?

You can personally define free will to mean "the choice between good and evil."

But, well, that sounds like a personal decision.

Given a choice between worlds where those two concepts are the choice, I would choose to live in the universe with free will.

To me, that depends if I get a life currently similar to mine, or if I get killed as an innocent baby.
But, assuming I get a life similar to my current one... I would still choose a world with "slightly less evil" over than this one no matter what. A world with, say, no rapes of little girls. All other evil remains.

Would that not be favourable than our current world?
Would both still have "free will?"
Do we have "free will" now?

(These questions are meant to understand your current-understanding of the term 'free will').

Edited by Stile, : Attempting some clarification and spelling corrections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 212 of 224 (797302)
01-16-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
01-16-2017 10:43 AM


Re: Omni-God
sometimes you don't make consistent sense. On the one hand, you say that all God does it tell Noah to be responsible for his own salvation. On the other, you say that if you could imagine God as existing, He is then obligated to prevent evil. In other words, your God becomes one whom You define and create.

Our duty is to listen and obey, not to direct.

There would have been no need to build a boat without a flood. The evidence showed no likelihood of a flood.

People too often wait for evidence and the indecisiveness dooms them.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:28 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 213 of 224 (797388)
01-19-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
01-16-2017 2:47 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

... you say that if you could imagine God as existing, He is then obligated to prevent evil.


Not at all. But if there was a God who could prevent evil and didn't, he would be the enemy.

Phat writes:

In other words, your God becomes one whom You define and create.


No. YOUR God is one whom YOU define and create and I reject.

Phat writes:

There would have been no need to build a boat without a flood.


EXACTLY! Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 2:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 10:03 AM ringo has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 214 of 224 (811463)
06-08-2017 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


We have no flaws
This topic is for those who assume/believe that God either exists or may exist.
In the Book Nook in another topic, Ringo and I had this exchange:

Phat writes:
the only problem I see with human literature is that humans glorify their own creativity and imagination and minimize the idea that something greater than us is also out there

Ringo writes:
You see it as a problem. I see taking charge of our own destiny as our greatest strength.

I personally believe that we humans need a Creator/mentor all wise guide that encourages and inspires humanity to fulfill our best aspirations. Perhaps our greatest strength is our personal and societal responsibility for our own destiny, but I believe that we are flawed in the ability to achieve this goal.

Faith/Belief?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You wrote wisely Phat, until your last sentence. The Lord of Creation and Design, designed life so we would not have any excuse for not understanding. Yes we are dealt different cards from the deck of life, whether at present or past genrations back to Adam and Eve, but all our lifes instances and chances are written down and the Lord knows every instance and our every decision and thought process. We can not escape from our responsibility. It is written.....

So we have no flaws in achieving our goals, all things are possible with his help, because as you stated we do need HIM.

For even from birth, we have had the Holy Spirit whispering in each of our ears, and witnessing the Lord and truths in our ears and in our brains and hearts... none of us have NOT had her whispering THEREIN.

Therefore we all have been taught if we were listening and if we didn;t reject these truths.

There was no created flaws to understanding...

We can understand all things if we just listen...

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 215 of 224 (811494)
06-08-2017 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


Perhaps our greatest strength is our personal and societal responsibility for our own destiny, but I believe that we are flawed in the ability to achieve this goal.

But maybe your last sentence Phat, was meant to suggest that we humans are flawed in our ability to achieve our goals ... without the Lord or without God. For if that was your intent, then I shall totally agree with you !!!

Without the Lord, the great potennial within us will die and be wasted in our short lived lives, and we will have failed to reach any goals or lets say the proper goals individually or for the sake of soceity as a whole.

So do expand and explain further your opening 'last sentence' and see if we do agree .. Thanks


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 217 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 9:58 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 216 of 224 (811523)
06-09-2017 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Davidjay
06-08-2017 7:21 PM


But maybe your last sentence Phat, was meant to suggest that we humans are flawed in our ability to achieve our goals ... without the Lord or without God. For if that was your intent, then I shall totally agree with you !!!
Well then we agree---at least on that point. Humans need a Jesus App...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 7:21 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 217 of 224 (811565)
06-09-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Davidjay
06-08-2017 7:21 PM


NEED
Without the Lord, the great potential within us will die and be wasted in our short lived lives, and we will have failed to reach any goals or lets say the proper goals individually or for the sake of soceity as a whole.

jar and ringo would argue that there is no such thing as Original Sin and that everyone on the planet is capable of accepting the charge without accepting GOD since HE is beyond our understanding....ringo would go so far as to argue that GOD is either silent or more likely a myth.

Simply a difference of opinion. I have never been able to convince anyone at EvC that I know that Jesus is alive.

Some here, such as New Cats Eye (longtime Catholic) have gotten saved on their own.

Tell us some of your experiences in street ministry. (No cut & pastes,please)

What makes you believe that salvation comes through knowing Christ? What have you seen that confirms it in your own mind and heart?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 7:21 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 11:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 223 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 1:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 218 of 224 (811567)
06-09-2017 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Davidjay
06-08-2017 11:17 AM


Re: We have no flaws
Davidjay writes:

For even from birth, we have had the Holy Spirit whispering in each of our ears, and witnessing the Lord and truths in our ears and in our brains and hearts... none of us have NOT had her whispering THEREIN.

Jesus would never call anyone stupid or willfully ignorant for resisting the inner unction. Perhaps some believe that they hear nothing.

Surely you have met such people, no?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 11:17 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 1:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 219 of 224 (811568)
06-09-2017 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
01-19-2017 11:28 AM


Re: Omni-God
ringo writes:

But if there was a God who could prevent evil and didn't, he would be the enemy.

Or perhaps He is waiting on you to do it.
Perhaps GOD is silent around you...for a reason. (Apart from your conclusion that He does not exist)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:28 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 06-09-2017 12:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 220 of 224 (811600)
06-09-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
06-09-2017 9:58 AM


Re: NEED

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 221 of 224 (811601)
06-09-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Phat
06-09-2017 10:03 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

But if there was a God who could prevent evil and didn't, he would be the enemy.


Or perhaps He is waiting on you to do it.

It's a bit late for me to prevent parasitic worms.

Phat writes:

Perhaps GOD is silent around you...for a reason. (Apart from your conclusion that He does not exist)


If somebody doesn't hear me, I talk louder.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 10:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 222 of 224 (811602)
06-09-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
06-09-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Holy Spirit whispers to all....
[qs] Jesus would never call anyone stupid or willfully ignorant for resisting the inner unction. Perhaps some believe that they hear nothing.

Surely you have met such people, no?
[qs]

Phat of course, Jesus calls some people stupid because they are willingly ignorant. Their will is to be ignorant and they refuse science and spirituality and HIM. Its not because they couldnt understand, its because some willfully refuse to understand as it is their choice not to understand.

But ALL, hear from the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit talsk to ALL. That voice is universal and a person has to willfully stop listening or tune the Holy Spirit out before the Holy Spirit stops whispering in their ears or inner conscience.

This is why its so important to reach kids or children or the undecided before they become hard core evolutionists or atheists or deniers, as spiritual wax gets put in their ears, so they will not hear..

Surely you dont need scriptures on this....

You hard hearted and blind etc` etc.. Mathew 23
Tell that fox ... Mathew
whited selphecures, devils when ..Jesus spoke to the deaf and blind hard core religionists...

'Willingly ignorant'.... is in the epistles and is a principle written about many times. Some people are ignorant or unknowing because they have never heard before all the truths of the Lord or about His salvation, but there are others like the hardcore deniers, who have heard and deny deny deny. Those that have not heard, or ones we are suppose to reach and have a chance to reach, whereas the hard cores are almost hopeless because of their rejections in the past and their messed up minds and hearts.

This is why I state that when answering the hardcores, that I am no way trying to change them or convert them as that is their responsibility, I however am just trying to influence READERS at this discussion board.

As for some believeing that they hear nothing... NO all of creation speaks to anyone that sees or is in the Lords created CREATION and world, all can see it or fell it, if they tune in... its their choice.

SEE Romans 1,2

This is where I first heard from the Lord, when out catching frogs in the swamps near our house, or in the mountain lakes when fishing during university breaks...

The Holy Spirit speaks loud and clear.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 10:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 223 of 224 (811603)
06-09-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
06-09-2017 9:58 AM


Re: Answers to queries
Tell us some of your experiences in street ministry. (No cut & pastes,please)

What makes you believe that salvation comes through knowing Christ? What have you seen that confirms it in your own mind and heart?

Street experiences... I was out almost everyday for maybe six hours a day or nights..... passing out literature, tracts etc.... but never preaching on the streets (thats what churchies do, and I am not a preacher and not gifted vocally whether musically or from a pulpit, but I can talk to people one on one, as can anyone. Why because anyone can be a missionary for Jesus if they have the WILL, forget the so called church skills... just witness Jesus LOVE, and love always wins.

As for experiences, a myriad of them... if you mean the times I have been attacked by churchies, the list of harassments are innumerable, whereas the actual physical attacks have been few. And they did me ******* and ****** three times, under false accussations, but it gave me time to **** all the *** Test******.

How do I know Jesus is real because he absolutely proved himself to me, as He can do for anyone. I am not special, the Lord proves himself to those scientific types that want proofs, and evidence. You do your


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 1:21 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 224 of 224 (811604)
06-09-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Davidjay
06-09-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Answers to queries
Fishing for Dead Men Testimony

After being in a Christian group for a whole winter, (in 1972) when springtime rolled around I just had to get out into the fresh air and away from the confines of close quarters.

I wanted to return to the mountains and lakes of earlier years where I had gotten to know the Lord through His creation, Nature.
I loved fishing and soon got a job at a fishing camp as a guide catering to the fishing needs of well to do fisherman. But I found out after a shortened summer that my heart was no longer there as it used to be.

So I headed down to the coast in British Columbia, trying to get my head and my life sorted out.
What did I want to do with my future? Should I serve the Lord even though my talents werent in that field? Should I be outdoors or indoors? And my head and mind was spinning with thoughts and past experiences when I arrived on Long Beach on Vancouver Island.
It was a hub of activity still in late fall, as many campers and visitors were taking in the surf and the sunset.
I took my initial walk down the beach with the waves rolling in and campers starting to cook their evening meals etc.

But the whole serenity of this picturesque walk was going to be broken shortly.
For as I looked out at the swelling ocean coming in, I noticed what I thought was a log being sent inward by the waves. I looked again when the next crest raised it upwards again and I thought I saw something coming out of the trunk. This surely was more than a log!
I stared further until the next wave confirmed what I was thinking. It was a human body, for I could now see the arms and legs.
I rushed out into the surf, fully clothed and started pulling the body out of the water towards the beach. His eyes were wide open, his belly was totally swollen and he wasn't moving at all. I called for help, but before any one could
respond I hear this very audible voice say to me Follow me, and I will make you a fisher of men (Mathew 4:19)

I instantly knew what it meant, and heard for the first time the Lords voice. Yet I was now in shock and needed the assistance of others to bring the body onto the beach. But I knew in my heart that he was dead and no amount of aid could bring him back to life. But others tried and tried to revive him.

From a distance as I watched, the words kept going through my head, Follow me, and I will make
you a fisher of men
.. But I knew I was no longer following Him and even considering not following Him for the rest of my life.

But if I didn't follow my first love, and just went fishing for my own self and my own pleasures, I, then knew, I would be fishing dead men out of the water rather than living ones. And I would be wasting my life as more died around me and drowned. Is this what I wanted? Is this the kind of
fisherman I wanted to be ? No !

So, that very night I got back into my pick-up camper and headed back to Vancouver and back to Christian service. And by the Grace of God with bumps along the way, I and my family have been
doing it ever since, because I don't want to fish dead men, but be a fisherman for the LORD of
LORDS!

In His Service

Jordan Fisherman
(David Jay Jordan)

from http://www.davidjayjordan.com/Abouttheauthor.html

Edited by AdminPhat, : punctuation


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Davidjay, posted 06-09-2017 1:19 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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