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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 136 of 224 (747003)
01-11-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
01-11-2015 1:51 AM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:

the only people who get wiped out in the NT are the ones who follow the Beast.


Come on. How many times do we have to go through this?
quote:
Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There's nothing about following any "Beast" and there's nothing about believing in any resurrection.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 1:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 137 of 224 (747024)
01-11-2015 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
01-11-2015 1:10 PM


Re: God, by definition
Yes, but according to that verse those people wipe themselves out. God does not wipe them out.

They either did it or did not do it. Free choice.
Moral:
Be careful what you do for you are fully responsible for the outcome.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 01-11-2015 1:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 01-12-2015 10:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 138 of 224 (747084)
01-12-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
01-11-2015 4:06 PM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:

Yes, but according to that verse those people wipe themselves out. God does not wipe them out.


Nonsense. God wipes them out because they don't do what he wants them to do.

Phat writes:

Be careful what you do for you are fully responsible for the outcome.


We are responsible for the natural consequences. If you knowingly drop a hammer on your foot you're responsible for the damage. But if God slaps you upside the head for dropping your hammer, that isn't a natural consequence and you aren't responsible. He is.

Do you really want to argue that we "need" God to add unnecessarily to our woes?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-11-2015 4:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 01-13-2015 2:44 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 139 of 224 (747182)
01-13-2015 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
01-12-2015 10:44 AM


Re: God, by definition
ringo writes:

We are responsible for the natural consequences. If you knowingly drop a hammer on your foot you're responsible for the damage. But if God slaps you upside the head for dropping your hammer, that isn't a natural consequence and you aren't responsible. He is.

If God slaps you--yes He is responsible. If you go outside with no jacket and catch a cold, Nature is not responsible---you are for being knowingly careless. Besides...how do we know God is not involved in natural consequences?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 01-12-2015 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 01-13-2015 8:37 AM Phat has responded
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 01-13-2015 11:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29743
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 140 of 224 (747191)
01-13-2015 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
01-13-2015 2:44 AM


the Plane, the Plane
Phat writes:

Besides...how do we know God is not involved in natural consequences?

The topic, the topic.

"Do We NEED God?"

No god is needed to explain natural consequences.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 01-13-2015 2:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:38 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 141 of 224 (747218)
01-13-2015 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Phat
01-13-2015 2:44 AM


Re: God, by definition
Phat writes:

If God slaps you--yes He is responsible.


Okay, let's try this again:
quote:
Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you picture people asking, "Which way to the everlasting punishment?" Do we "need" God to give us directions? Maybe you should call Disney and suggest that they open an everlasting punishment ride.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Phat, posted 01-13-2015 2:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by vimesey, posted 01-13-2015 12:17 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 142 of 224 (747223)
01-13-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
01-13-2015 11:16 AM


Re: God, by definition
Maybe you should call Disney and suggest that they open an everlasting punishment ride.

Well, they already have Jessie, and Austin & Ally.....


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 01-13-2015 11:16 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 143 of 224 (747398)
01-15-2015 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
01-13-2015 8:37 AM


Re: the Plane, the Plane
jar writes:

No god is needed to explain natural consequences.

I notice that you used the lowercase g. Had you used the term God, I would have questioned your affirmation as a believer. How on earth can you even mention logic, reason, and reality without acknowledging that God is in communion with humanity? Yes I know---how do we know?

Sometimes, jar...you don't make sense. To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God. The Holy Spirit inspires us.

Its not just air that we inhale.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 01-13-2015 8:37 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 9:11 AM Phat has responded
 Message 145 by ringo, posted 01-15-2015 10:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 01-15-2015 11:27 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29743
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 144 of 224 (747410)
01-15-2015 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
01-15-2015 6:38 AM


Re: the Plane, the Plane
Phat writes:

Sometimes, jar...you don't make sense. To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God. The Holy Spirit inspires us.

Its not just air that we inhale.

But Phat, I am a believer. The issue is unrelated to anyone's beliefs, it is (as it was framed by the member that started the thread) "Do we need God?"

The honest answer is that so far there is absolutely no evidence that any GOD, God or god is needed.

And what exactly do we inhale other than air?

How does any Holy Spirit inspire anyone?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 1:51 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 145 of 224 (747417)
01-15-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
01-15-2015 6:38 AM


Re: the Plane, the Plane
Phat writes:

To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God.


You know that isn't true. Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 146 of 224 (747427)
01-15-2015 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
01-15-2015 6:38 AM


Re: the Plane, the Plane
Maybe you could define the term "God". That might help a little.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 6:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 2:13 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 147 of 224 (747479)
01-15-2015 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
01-15-2015 9:11 AM


How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God.


ringo writes:

You know that isn't true. Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that.

But believers do have a monopoly(by default and by world view) on God. We believe that life itself is made possible only by and through God. The monopoly, in my mind, is God Himself.

jar writes:

But Phat, I am a believer. The issue is unrelated to anyone's beliefs, it is (as it was framed by the member that started the thread) "Do we need God?"

I believe that life itself is made possible by God and through God.
Acts 17:28 writes:

'For in him we live and move and have our being.

jar writes:

The honest answer is that so far there is absolutely no evidence that any GOD, God or god is needed.

To me, scripture is evidence. I question it, yet have no reason to doubt it.

jar writes:

And what exactly do we inhale other than air?

SPIRIT

pneuma NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

SPIRIT

The "Holy Spirit" is spoken of under various titles in the NT ("Spirit" and "Ghost" are renderings of the same word, pneuma; the advantage of the rendering "Spirit" is that it can always be used, whereas "Ghost" always requires the word "Holy" prefixed.)
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

jar writes:

How does any Holy Spirit inspire anyone?


Being led by the Spirit involves walking in the Spirit and not the flesh/mind/ego. In my belief, this ability is not instinct. It is intention.

quote:
Matt 4:1-2- Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
The inspiration to go fast in the desert was from God.Jesus did not simply decide to do it of his own accord.

Granted, it would not be easy for an observer to tell whether a person was being led by the Spirit or whether they were simply doin what comes naturally....until one observed the fruit being produced by said person.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 9:11 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by jar, posted 01-15-2015 2:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 01-16-2015 11:15 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29743
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 148 of 224 (747489)
01-15-2015 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
01-15-2015 1:51 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat, what you believe has nothing to do with reality.

Phat writes:

I believe that life itself is made possible by God and through God.

But what does that even mean?

You may believe that is true but there are far more folk living that believe that life is not made possible through God or by God.

You claim we inhale SPIRIT, but what the hell does that even mean? Where is the evidence? What flavors does SPIRIT come in? How many calories per serving?

It's fine for you to claim that "You NEED God" but that is not the topic. Do you have any evidence that "We NEED God?"


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 1:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 149 of 224 (747492)
01-15-2015 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Theodoric
01-15-2015 11:27 AM


God by Definition
Theodoric writes:

Maybe you could define the term "God". That might help a little.

Sure. Lets start with "Creator of all seen and unseen."

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 01-15-2015 11:27 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Theodoric, posted 01-15-2015 3:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 150 of 224 (747522)
01-15-2015 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
01-15-2015 2:13 PM


Re: God by Definition
Not really a definition is it.

Just states what you think this god does. This "definition" doesn't define what your concept of your god is.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 2:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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