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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 166 of 213 (796470)
12-30-2016 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-29-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society?


We can tell the heroes from the villains by how they treat society.

Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's Indifferent-Man!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-29-2016 3:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 167 of 213 (796481)
12-30-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
12-30-2016 9:13 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

Think of the implications, though. Assuming God could and would alter every event that was hurting someone...think of the implications of doing that. How would reality play out?

Little girls would no longer get raped?
What's bad about this?

What's so bad about a world exactly like this one, but little girls no longer get raped?

I'm not talking about removing everything anyone calls "hurting someone."
I brought up a very extreme example for a reason... it's obvious and persistent. Anyone who disagrees with stopping such atrocities is obviously a psychopath.

But they aren't all stopped.

How can this be possible with a God who is aware enough, benevolent enough, loving enough and powerful enough?
It simply isn't possible.

Therefore, God is not aware enough, benenvolent enough, loving enough or powerful enough.

It's not a difficult idea. It's just an uncomfortable one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 9:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 7:25 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 168 of 213 (796530)
12-30-2016 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Stile
12-30-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Omni-God
Think harder. IF God not only actively prevented each and every human from getting hurt but additionally prevented every possible accident from happening. How would this be possible? What power would God use? How would it affect everyday life and free will?
Therefore, God is not aware enough, benevolent enough, loving enough or powerful enough.
Not necessarily. The issue is that we dont understand what the power means or what it would change about our lives as a species. A human cannot simply put themselves "in Gods place" and understand the responsibilities of the Deity as defined by fallible humans. Our minds simply cannot compute the result.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 12:21 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 12-30-2016 8:17 PM Phat has responded
 Message 173 by Stile, posted 01-02-2017 9:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28839
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 169 of 213 (796532)
12-30-2016 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
12-30-2016 7:25 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

A human cannot simply put themselves "in Gods place" and understand the responsibilities of the Deity as defined by fallible humans.

That's not what God said Phat. In fact that is exactly opposite of what God said.

quote:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 7:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 9:24 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 170 of 213 (796538)
12-30-2016 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
12-30-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Omni-God
And yet you yourself have said that GOD is unknowable. Just because we know the difference between good and evil does not mean we have the perspective of GOD.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 12-30-2016 8:17 PM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9548
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 171 of 213 (796544)
12-31-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Stile
12-29-2016 3:50 PM


Re: Omni-God
But if I was a superhero I would still stop the raping of little girls.

All of them? Would you set the priority for doing stopping rape higher than say arranging peace in the Middle East?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 3:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Stile, posted 01-02-2017 8:53 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 01-02-2017 10:54 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 172 of 213 (796638)
01-02-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by NoNukes
12-31-2016 2:05 AM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Stile writes:

But if I was a superhero I would still stop the raping of little girls.

All of them?

All of them that I could. Which would depend on the extent of my powers as a "superhero" which do not seem to be defined here.

Again, it depends on 2 basic things:

Am I powerful enough to stop it?
-am I aware of it?
-can I prevent it?
-are some "events" too far apart/at the same time and I can't do both?

Do I care enough to stop it?
-do I want to help the victim?
-if I help the victim, am I disregarding some other aspect of my life (caring for and supporting my own family, say)? Is that aspect more important at some level?

These are all questions that become moot when discussing the abilities of an "all powerful" God who "always loves" everyone, all the time.
I'm not sure where my suggested superhero abilities would begin or end. But the idea as suggested (I thought, anyway) was an analogy for me to 'become God' and see what it was like. If I really was "all powerful," I don't see how any of my thoughts above would prevent me from stopping any rape.

Would you set the priority for doing stopping rape higher than say arranging peace in the Middle East?

Again, this depends on the levels of my powers.
If my powers are large enough, if I am "all powerful"... is there a need for any priority? Why not do both?

If I had to choose... well, I would assume it would be extremely situational.
That is, I might focus on the larger task (peace in the Middle East) yet stop any rapes I become aware of while there... or something like that. Maybe 'peace in the Middle East' is too much for my superpowers, even? Who knows?

My point is that such questions become moot if someone ("God") really is "all powerful." Why have any priorities at that point? Why not prevent all horrendous acts of abuse against innocents?

I can't seem to find the quote I'm thinking of, but this is close enough:

quote:
Problem of Evil

If God is omniscient, he is aware of the existence of evil; if he is omnipotent, he is able to stop it; if he is omnibenevolent, he wants to stop it. As the philospher Epicurus asked over 2,000 years ago, if this is the case, whence evil?


It's a simple case of people running away with the "my Dad is bigger than your Dad" idea of children.
My God is stronger than your God.
My God is more caring than your God.
My God is Omnipotent!
My God is Omni-benevolent!

...people got into grabbing onto these labels without really thinking through how the reality we live in can exist the way it is if such an all-powerful God really existed.

To me, it's an obvious point showing us that the idea of an "all powerful, all-loving" God really is just made up by people.

Of course, God may still exist. He just can't be omnipotent and all-caring/loving at the same time while such evil things happen.

There are many things I would call "God" if they are powerful enough and caring enough... even if they are not omnipotent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2016 2:05 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 173 of 213 (796640)
01-02-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
12-30-2016 7:25 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

IF God not only actively prevented each and every human from getting hurt but additionally prevented every possible accident from happening.

But I'm not expecting this.

This would be difficult at some level to define "hurt."
Which, again, is why I picked the extremely obvious example of "raping little girls."

To me, this seems like an irrefutable place to start. If necessary, we can move onto the 'next evil' once all the rapes are taken care of.

How would this be possible?

I don't think anything would be an issue for an "omnipotent" God?

The issue is that we don't understand what the power means or what it would change about our lives as a species.

I know exactly what the power of stopping rapes of little girls means and what it would change about our lives as a species.
The little girl would not be raped, and retain the free will of her life.
The rapist would not get-to-rape, and lose the free will of a few hours or so.

Again, this example is chosen because it is extremely easy to see the issues, understand the consequences and know what has to be done.

If it's easy for us, why is it so hard for God?

A human cannot simply put themselves "in Gods place" and understand the responsibilities of the Deity as defined by fallible humans.

If you'd like, I can explain to God why preventing the rape of little girls is a good thing.
I'm extremely confident in my fallible, human ability to conclude such an endeavor.
I don't understand why you seem to be having difficulty with it.

Our minds simply cannot compute the result.

Mine seems to compute such things just fine.
Are you really having such confusion over whether or not little girls should be allowed to get raped?

Think harder.

A great suggestion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 7:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 174 of 213 (796646)
01-02-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by NoNukes
12-31-2016 2:05 AM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Would you set the priority for doing stopping rape higher than say arranging peace in the Middle East?


Why would an omnipotent God have priorities?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2016 2:05 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:17 PM ringo has responded
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:19 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9548
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 175 of 213 (796652)
01-02-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ringo
01-02-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Omni-God
Why would an omnipotent God have priorities?

Because being omnipotent does not necessarily mean you can be in two places at once?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 01-02-2017 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 01-05-2017 10:39 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9548
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 176 of 213 (796653)
01-02-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by ringo
01-02-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Omni-God
Why would an omnipotent God have priorities?

Because being omnipotent does not necessarily mean you can be in two places at once? Because some things conflict with other things? Because somethings actually are more important that others? Because he has assigned somethings for you to do?

Perhaps your idea of what God is like does not reflect what God is actually like?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by ringo, posted 01-02-2017 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 4:10 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 01-05-2017 10:44 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2694
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 177 of 213 (796656)
01-02-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Phat
12-30-2016 9:13 AM


Re: Omni-God
Well he could have just designed stuff to be safer from human abuse, like put some teeth in little girls vaginas, and the problem of little girls being raped is gone.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 9:13 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4644
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 178 of 213 (796657)
01-02-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Because being omnipotent does not necessarily mean you can be in two places at once?

Ah, the lessor god. Very human.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:19 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 8:57 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 179 of 213 (796660)
01-02-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
01-02-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Omni-God
My argument is that though God by definition would be fully capable of micromanaging everything, to interfere would disrupt the original plan.

After all, if God were going to interfere, why not start with Satan? Stop the evil at its source.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 4:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 6:14 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 181 by Riggamortis, posted 01-02-2017 7:04 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 184 by Stile, posted 01-03-2017 9:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-07-2017 10:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4644
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 180 of 213 (796666)
01-02-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
01-02-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

My argument is that though God by definition would be fully capable of micromanaging everything, to interfere would disrupt the original plan.

What plan? If this is a plan, I'm a goldfish.

After all, if God were going to interfere, why not start with Satan? Stop the evil at its source.

Well - going with the childish fiction here - why not?

What do you think this god of yours is doing with us Phat? Is he just having a laugh, experimenting, what? Is he playing with us? Are we his pets? Why would a god do what he's done here? Does it make any sense to you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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