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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
jar
Member
Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 196 of 224 (796998)
01-09-2017 12:00 PM


Do we need Odin?
Do we need Allah?

Do we need Coyote?

Do we need Thor?

Do we need Athena?

Do we need Venus?

Do we need Ra?

Do we need Ganesha?

Do we need God?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Diomedes, posted 01-09-2017 1:44 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 198 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 3:21 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
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Posts: 628
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.4


(1)
Message 197 of 224 (797000)
01-09-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jar
01-09-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Do we need Odin?
Do we need Thor?

For the record, we DO need Thor. He is a major member of the Avengers:

Plus, what's not to like? Flowing red cape. Armor. And a bad-ass hammer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 01-09-2017 12:00 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 198 of 224 (797002)
01-09-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by jar
01-09-2017 12:00 PM


Do we need Odin? Do we need jar?
Just because humans can make up whatever gods they like does not mean that there is not an actual God apart from it all.

Humans can and do invent gods on a daily basis. Alcohol becomes an object of worship for some. Porn for others. And yes....human intelligence itself.

At least Diomedes has a sense of humor about it all....

I know that your argument is that everyone invents their own idea of God.

Hence I will declare that we do need jar to be our thorn in the flesh, always challenging us to question our cherished answers!

Edited by Phat, : edited to reflect evolving argument


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 01-09-2017 12:00 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 199 of 224 (797125)
01-12-2017 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Stile
09-26-2012 11:34 AM


Re: Making Sense
phat writes:

The issue of control also comes up, and apologists often mention that one hallmark characteristic of many atheists/agnostics is the insistence upon having a freely chosen life free from the control of any deity or organized religious influence.


stile writes:

Very understandable.
And we're just two different people. See how different our feelings and needs are? How different do you think all the feelings and needs are for an entire country? How about 7 billion different people?
Maybe the only NEED is for there to be more than one answer...

Or perhaps no answers at all. Fundamentalists would insist there is only one answer and that His name is Jesus. The argument then centers on the idea of God(the One who actually is, not one of jars list of deities that people made up) becoming human so that humans could know Him.

stile writes:

I don't think you should throw away any of your beliefs, I think they are extremely valid simply because they are important to you. I just want to suggest that other people's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) are equally valid simply because they are important to them.

OK, I'll go with that.
Stile writes:

So, do you still think WE need God?
Or do you think that maybe only PHAT needs God?
If you still think WE need God, do you have any specific example or situation you can describe that would show a difference that would require everyone involved to NEED God?

The only scenario I could imagine would be if a major global event wiped out many of the false objects of security we cling to, like money or basic infrastructure. I certainly would not want some global credit card stamped on my hand! At that point I would see that humanity had again blown the opportunity to lead itself forward...and would argue that we all needed God at that point. More to the point, I would argue that we all needed common unity.

By the way, jar does have a point in that I desire a God that helps me and not an indifferent one. I cannot imagine a world set up with common unity amongst the people excluding a need for God. In fact, I believe that this explains the tower of Babel story in Genesis 11. The people wanted to make a name for themselves...and wrote God out of the collective script.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 11:34 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 01-12-2017 9:37 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 200 of 224 (797131)
01-12-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
01-12-2017 7:46 AM


Common Unity
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

Maybe the only NEED is for there to be more than one answer...

Or perhaps no answers at all.

These 2 statements mean exactly the same thing to me

And this is very interesting:

Phat writes:

Stile writes:

I just want to suggest that other people's beliefs (or lack of beliefs) are equally valid simply because they are important to them.

OK, I'll go with that.

Stile writes:

If you still think WE need God, do you have any specific example or situation you can describe that would show a difference that would require everyone involved to NEED God?

The only scenario I could imagine would be if a major global event wiped out many of the false objects of security we cling to, like money or basic infrastructure. I certainly would not want some global credit card stamped on my hand! At that point I would see that humanity had again blown the opportunity to lead itself forward...and would argue that we all needed God at that point.

When I read this, this is my understanding of your position:

As long as everything is fairly okay, you have no issues with other people having different beliefs.
However, if a difficult situation comes along... one that would have almost everyone relying on their own beliefs to get them through the situation... in this sort of turmoil, you would want to force everyone to use YOUR beliefs instead of the ones that might actually help them get through the problem?

I know you feel incredibly solid that God is required to help get through tough times.
Can you imagine someone else feeling the same level of adherence to their own belief that they might require to help get through tough times?

If so... why take such a thing away from them? Would you want such a thing taken away from you?
If not... how can you be so arrogant?

This idea that you hold something so dear... that no one else can possibly hold a different idea equally as dearly... is exactly why people fight and argue all the time.

Again, I'm sure you have no problems with your favourite colour and someone else having a different favourite colour.
What about one child needing a blanket when they're scared vs. another child needing a calming bath?

Why is it when things are "not a big deal" you have no issue allowing others to make their own choices, but as soon as something is "very important" other people are no longer allowed to think for themselves? They must, then, take Phat at his word and accept his way of doing things?

I would suggest that if your opinion is so much greater... then you should be able to convince others of it's obvious beneficial qualities during times of calmness and peace rather than relying on a wide-spread disaster in order to spring your personal beliefs on others

If you are unable to do so when things are normal, perhaps there is a reason why you should not do such things when panic and fear are ruling the day?

When people are scared and troubled, it is best to calm them down their way to get them to a reasonable position again... then you can move on to convincing others of your "great ideas" when time permits.

Phat writes:

More to the point, I would argue that we all needed common unity.

I would, however, agree that "common unity" would be a much needed goal during such a time.

What makes you think that forcing everyone to do things Phat's way, when we know there is a majority that do not agree, would be a good way to achieve "common unity" instead of finding "common unity" in people's desire for peace and calmness itself (no matter the pathway to that peace and calmness, given it's not hurting other people)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 01-12-2017 7:46 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 12:56 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9433
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 201 of 224 (797164)
01-13-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Stile
01-12-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Common Unity
This discussion has expanded. It is also included at What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?

Right now I'm focusing on evidence as a necessary prerequisite to belief vs belief itself as a portal to spiritual contentment.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Stile, posted 01-12-2017 9:37 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 9653
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 202 of 224 (797169)
01-13-2017 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by ringo
01-05-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Omni-God
I think it clearly does.

Let me be clearer. There are certain things that are impossible regardless of your power level. In particular, there cannot simultaneously be free will and free action and yet have a universe where no one can elect to do evil. Given a choice between worlds where those two concepts are the choice, I would choose to live in the universe with free will.

Now I understand that some folks believe that omnipotence means being able to accomplish everything including things that are logically rather than practically, impossible. I think that idea of what God should be able to do is silly. If that means that God really is not omnipotent, well that's a human term of no real import. God does not make invisible pink mammals that lay eggs. So what?

One of the participants in this discussion insisted in a previous discussion that because the sun is only going to last, say 9 billion years before incinerating the inner planets, means that God is responsible for a great evil. Well, guess what. It is literally impossible to create a star that can last forever; so given a choice between a solar system that lasts a few billion years, and none at all, I prefer the one we have.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 01-05-2017 10:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4773
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 203 of 224 (797170)
01-13-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Well, guess what. It is literally impossible to create a star that can last forever.

That's not what people are taught by religions about their God is it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 3:04 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 204 of 224 (797175)
01-13-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Tangle
01-13-2017 1:31 PM


Re: Omni-God
That's not what people are taught by religions about their God is it?

That depends on who is doing the teaching. There are some really bad teachers out there particularly when it comes to stuff like religion.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 1:31 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 5:09 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4773
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 205 of 224 (797182)
01-13-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by jar
01-13-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:

That depends on who is doing the teaching. There are some really bad teachers out there particularly when it comes to stuff like religion.

There are bad teachers, probably mostly bad teachers as people are free to make up what they like about religious belief and do it regularly.

But god being everywhere and able to do anything is universally taught by Christianity. It's fundamental. Anything less is this very modern idea of a 'lessor god' which is a necessary reaction by intelligent believers to scientific discovery. It just demonstrates the elasticity of belief. Ironically, it evolves.

But even so, omnipotence etc is still what the vast majoty of proles are taught and believe.

Possibly for another thread but it shocked me that at university I shared a flat with a theology student and she explained how very few of the traditional beliefs taught to the proles are actually shared by those that teach them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 3:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 5:54 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 206 of 224 (797186)
01-13-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Tangle
01-13-2017 5:09 PM


Re: Omni-God
Tangle writes:

But god being everywhere and able to do anything is universally taught by Christianity. It's fundamental. Anything less is this very modern idea of a 'lessor god' which is a necessary reaction by intelligent believers to scientific discovery. It just demonstrates the elasticity of belief. Ironically, it evolves.

But that is simply not correct. If you read the Bible stories themselves you find that the Gods depicted in those stories are not everywhere and able to do anything. What you claim is universally taught by Christianity is simply not the case.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 6:10 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4773
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 207 of 224 (797188)
01-13-2017 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
01-13-2017 5:54 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:

But that is simply not correct. If you read the Bible stories themselves you find that the Gods depicted in those stories are not everywhere and able to do anything.

What? You think there's some connection between what the major Christian religions teach the unwashed and what might be written at any point in the bible? Come on. Omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything is the definition of a proper god.

What you claim is universally taught by Christianity is simply not the case.

Well i beg to differ.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 5:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29036
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 208 of 224 (797189)
01-13-2017 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Tangle
01-13-2017 6:10 PM


Re: Omni-God
What? You think there's some connection between what the major Christian religions teach the unwashed and what might be written at any point in the bible? Come on. Omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything is the definition of a proper god.

No, I am saying that Christian education is not a monolithic entity. I am the product of a Christian education in Christian schools that is part of a major Christian denomination where it was pointed out that that according to the Bible stories themselves the authors believed that God was not omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2017 6:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2017 3:31 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4773
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 209 of 224 (797192)
01-14-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
01-13-2017 6:19 PM


Re: Omni-God
Jar writes:

No, I am saying that Christian education is not a monolithic entity. I am the product of a Christian education in Christian schools that is part of a major Christian denomination where it was pointed out that that according to the Bible stories themselves the authors believed that God was not omnipresence, omnipotence and pretty much omnieverything.

Well, I can't speak for every Christian everywhere - they make up the most bizarre things, hence the tens of thousands of sects - but I'm prepared to bet that the vasy majority believe in and were taught the omni-god. The one thats all powerful, can do anything and is everywhere simultaneously, watching and listening in.

quote:

Attributes of God in Christianity

Omnipotence
The omnipotence of God refers to him being "all powerful". This is often conveyed with the phrase "Almighty", as in the Old Testament title "God Almighty" (the conventional translation of the Hebrew title El Shaddai) and the title "God the Father Almighty" in the Apostles' Creed.

Jesus says in Matthew 19:26, "with God all things are possible". C. S. Lewis clarifies this concept: "His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power."[37]

Omnipresence
The omnipresence of God refers to him being present everywhere. Berkhof distinguishes between God's immensity and his omnipresence, saying that the former "points to the fact that God transcends all space and is not subject to its limitations," emphasising his transcendence, while the latter denotes that God "fills every part of space with His entire Being," emphasising his immanence.[38] In Psalm 139, David says, "If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Psalm 139:8, NIV).

Omniscience
The omniscience of God refers to him being "all knowing". Berkhof regards the wisdom of God as a "particular aspect of his knowledge."[39] Romans 16:27 speaks about the "only wise God".


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...ributes_of_God_in_Christianity


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 01-13-2017 6:19 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13197
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 210 of 224 (797278)
01-16-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

In particular, there cannot simultaneously be free will and free action and yet have a universe where no one can elect to do evil.


Free will is just as silly a concept as omnipotence.

NoNukes writes:

It is literally impossible to create a star that can last forever;


It is only impossible given the physical laws that we have - which were supposedly created by God. If you're constraining God to real physical laws outside His control, you're giving Him a huge copout not to do anything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

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