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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 151 of 213 (747571)
01-16-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
01-15-2015 1:51 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

But believers do have a monopoly(by default and by world view) on God. We believe that life itself is made possible only by and through God. The monopoly, in my mind, is God Himself.


What are you talking about?

In Message 143 you said, "To a believer, the very idea of logic, reason, and reality insist upon communion with God," and in Message 145 I replied, "Believers have no monopoly on logic, reason and reality. Even believers don't believe that."

Your only response seems to be word salad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 01-15-2015 1:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 5:50 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 152 of 213 (747586)
01-16-2015 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
01-16-2015 11:15 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Lets try this again.

My belief, of course is that God created all things. In Him is life and that life is the light of men.

Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.

Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round.

The evidence does not validate my claims.

You may say that you are doing just fine without Him.

(You wanna be left alone)

Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next?


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 01-16-2015 11:15 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 2:41 AM Phat has responded
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 01-17-2015 11:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 153 of 213 (747595)
01-17-2015 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
01-16-2015 5:50 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

Lets try this again.
My belief, of course is that God created all things.

No he didn't

In Him is life and that life is the light of men.

No it's not

Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.

No it's not

Critics would disagree, saying that God is within my imagination. My belief is that you all are part of His imagination, and thus we go round and round.

Well yes, of course. That's because we all know what you believe because you keep telling us. We only go round and round because...

The evidence does not validate my claims.

....and

You may say that you are doing just fine without Him.

Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.

(You wanna be left alone)

We are left alone.

Now that we have all of that cleared up, what shall we discuss next?

Something that is not just you telling us what you believe without a scrap of evidence and that can't be adequately countered with the statement "no it's not".

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 5:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 154 of 213 (747601)
01-17-2015 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
01-17-2015 2:41 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Tangle writes:

Obviously I AM doing just fine without him.

There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't".

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 2:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Tangle, posted 01-17-2015 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2015 8:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 155 of 213 (747603)
01-17-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:21 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

There is only one I AM. The lie would tell you "no there isn't".

If I could work out what that meant, I'm pretty sure I could just say 'no there isn't'. But As I can't.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5702
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 156 of 213 (747604)
01-17-2015 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:21 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Well I AM, so does that make me the I AM?

You really need to stop speaking in gibberish.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:54 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 157 of 213 (747605)
01-17-2015 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Theodoric
01-17-2015 8:50 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
You know the point I am making.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 01-17-2015 8:50 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Asgara, posted 01-17-2015 10:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1779
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 158 of 213 (747616)
01-17-2015 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
01-17-2015 8:54 AM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

You know the point I am making.

Actually Phat, no. Everyone knows the point you're TRYING to make. There is a big difference between trying and actually making that point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 01-17-2015 8:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 159 of 213 (747621)
01-17-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
01-16-2015 5:50 PM


Re: How does the Holy Spirit inspire anyone?
Phat writes:

My belief, of course is that God created all things. In Him is life and that life is the light of men.

Hence, all logic, reason and reality are filtered through Him.


Phat writes:

The evidence does not validate my claims.


That's the problem. You might as well say that pink unicorns are prancing through my living room and that all logic, reason and reality are filtered through them.

It isn't. Logic, reason and reality are still logic, reason and reality no matter what you believe. You are not talking about logic, reason and reality at all. You're talking about a silly caricature of logic, reason and reality. You're trying too hard to believe in what you know is not true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 01-16-2015 5:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ScottRP
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 515
From: Tustin, California USA
Joined: 02-26-2015


Message 160 of 213 (751048)
02-26-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-18-2012 1:02 PM


I believe that it is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife and that we need a Savior to deliver us from this miserable condition.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-18-2012 1:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 161 of 213 (796287)
12-28-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Stile
01-11-2015 9:39 AM


Re: mikey masochist
Stile writes:

However, we do have more information available to us about God that can indicate things to us more.
To me, the most convincing piece of information is that if I were to imagine a universe without God... it would look exactly like the one we're currently living in. As well, if I were to imagine a universe with a benevolent, loving, powerful God.. it would be extremely different from the one we're currently living in. That leads me towards an understanding that God does not exist.

Does this mean that you expect more out of God (Should He exist) than most of us do?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Stile, posted 01-11-2015 9:39 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 2:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2849
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 162 of 213 (796397)
12-29-2016 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Phat
12-28-2016 10:43 AM


Omni-God
Phat writes:

Does this mean that you expect more out of God (Should He exist) than most of us do?

I don't know.

What it means to me is that I expect a benevolent, loving, powerful God to be benevolent, loving and powerful.
With the way certain things are in this world, I cannot see how certain evils exist alongside a benevolent, loving and powerful God.

Maybe God isn't as benevolent towards other humans as I am.
Maybe God isn't as loving towards other humans as I am.
Maybe God isn't as powerful as I want Him to be.
Maybe some combination of those 3 things.

Or, maybe God doesn't exist.

I think it's the latter.

Think of a little girl getting raped.
In this world, little girls sometimes get raped.
If I had the power to stop such things, I would.
Why doesn't God?

Is God not benevolent enough towards little girls?
Is God not loving enough towards little girls?
Is God not powerful enough to stop rapists?
Some combination?

Or maybe God doesn't exist.

Some people may say that God doesn't want to interfere with the Free Will of the rapist.
To those people, I ask if they care about the Free Will of the little girl.

Both individuals have Free Will.
The rapist wants to rape the little girl.
The little girl does not want to be raped.

If the rape happens - the rapist gets his way, and the little girl loses her free will.
If the rape doesn't happen - the little girl gets her way, and the rapist loses his free will.
It is impossible for the little girl to be raped and not-raped at the same time. There is no "both win" scenario. It's either one or the other.

I side with the little girl.

If anyone wants to try and twist themselves into thinking that a "benevolent, loving and powerful" God would side with the rapist instead of with the little girl... then I would then ask them to define the words "benevolent" and "loving" while backing away very slowly. It's not healthy to startle psychopaths...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 12-28-2016 10:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-29-2016 3:18 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 163 of 213 (796403)
12-29-2016 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Stile
12-29-2016 2:14 PM


Re: Omni-God
Think of a little girl getting raped.
In this world, little girls sometimes get raped.
If I had the power to stop such things, I would.
Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society?
Why would society force you to be responsible for everything you could prevent?
Should society have such power over an individual?
Why is God reduced to the status of just another individual? Is it fair for the creation to direct the Creator?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 2:14 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 3:50 PM Phat has responded
 Message 166 by ringo, posted 12-30-2016 11:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2849
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 164 of 213 (796405)
12-29-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Phat
12-29-2016 3:18 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

Think of the implications if you became an instant superhero. What would be your responsibility to society?

My responsibility? Nothing.
But if I was a superhero I would still stop the raping of little girls.
Not because it was my responsibility, but because I'm benevolent, loving and powerful enough to do so.

Why would society force you to be responsible for everything you could prevent?

I don't think society could force me to be responsible for anything. Especially if I was a superhero.

Should society have such power over an individual?

What power does society have over a superhero? I don't think I understand what you're trying to talk about.

Why is God reduced to the status of just another individual? Is it fair for the creation to direct the Creator?

Reduced? I thought I was becoming a superhero in some sort of analogy towards God? A superhero is not "just another individual" or "reduced" in some way.
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I'm not directing God to say that He has to save little girls from getting raped.

I'm just saying that if God is powerful enough to stop such things, and He doesn't... then God is not benevolent or loving (at least, not towards that little girl).

It's a fairly simple concept.

There are many possible reasons why God doesn't stop such atrocities:

God is not powerful enough.
God is not benevolent enough.
God is not loving enough.
Or some combination.
There can be some extremely good reasons in there. The reason why I don't stop such things are in those 3. (Mine's because I'm not powerful enough).

Or maybe, God doesn't exist... but this kinda falls under "not powerful enough," too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 12-29-2016 3:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Phat, posted 12-30-2016 9:13 AM Stile has responded
 Message 171 by NoNukes, posted 12-31-2016 2:05 AM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 165 of 213 (796453)
12-30-2016 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Stile
12-29-2016 3:50 PM


Re: Omni-God
Not because it was my responsibility, but because I'm benevolent, loving and powerful enough to do so.
Think of the implications, though. Assuming God could and would alter every event that was hurting someone...think of the implications of doing that. How would reality play out?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Stile, posted 12-29-2016 3:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Stile, posted 12-30-2016 12:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 177 by frako, posted 01-02-2017 3:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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