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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 181 of 213 (796668)
01-02-2017 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
01-02-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Omni-God
The source of all things is god, no? Perhaps god should've topped himself rather than create anything?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9317
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 182 of 213 (796671)
01-02-2017 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Tangle
01-02-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Omni-God
Ah, the lessor god. Very human.

Not exactly. There is a popular, but not Biblical supportable view of what God's power is. It is the cartoon view of God that leads to questions such as "Can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it".

On the other hand, the Bible says some specific things about the nature of Gods power.

But hey, have your fun.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2017 4:10 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Tangle, posted 01-03-2017 4:05 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 183 of 213 (796681)
01-03-2017 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 8:57 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:


Not exactly. There is a popular, but not Biblical supportable view of what God's power is.


There are as many views of what a fictional god's power is as there are people prepared to speak of it. You can fabricate any scenario to suit any belief sytem can't you?

It is the cartoon view of God that leads to questions such as "Can God make a rock so big he cannot lift it".

Well if god can do anything, he can enjoy word games too I guess.

On the other hand, the Bible says some specific things about the nature of Gods power.

I'm sure it does. But what the masses are taught is that god is all powerful and everywhere. And if you're going to worship a god, that seems the sort of god you're going to invent.

But hey, have your fun.

Ok.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 8:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 184 of 213 (796692)
01-03-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
01-02-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

My argument is that though God by definition would be fully capable of micromanaging everything, to interfere would disrupt the original plan.

I have no issues with such an idea on it's own.

My issue only begins if someone then claims that God is also omnipotent and omni-benevolent.

There is no "plan" that includes the atrocities that exist in this world that can be described as "omni-benevolent" to those so negatively affected.

Which means either:

1. God doesn't care enough to prevent the atrocities, He cares more about getting His "plan" pushed through (not omni-benevolent).
2. Or God isn't powerful enough to carry through with His "plan" while also preventing such atrocities (not omnipotent).

In the words of the great Archer: "There's a nice way to do that!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 185 of 213 (796840)
01-05-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Because being omnipotent does not necessarily mean you can be in two places at once?


I think it clearly does.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 186 of 213 (796841)
01-05-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by NoNukes
01-02-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

Perhaps your idea of what God is like does not reflect what God is actually like?


My idea of God is that there is none. I'm just going by the idea of an "omnipotent" God that believers push.

NoNukes writes:

Because he has assigned somethings for you to do?


You're setting the bar for "omnipotence" pretty low. If I delegate everything, I can be "omnipotent" too.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2017 2:19 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 187 of 213 (796897)
01-07-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
01-05-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Omni-God
It would depress me to be an atheist. I can't imagine there being no God...He is the only one I can count on who will never let me down. I suppose from your perspective you are more concerned with not letting others down...and I can respect that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 01-05-2017 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2017 9:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 01-07-2017 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 188 of 213 (796904)
01-07-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
01-07-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

It would depress me to be an atheist.

I found it totally liberating. A huge weight lifted, all that biblical bollox gone. No all-seeing sky-daddy waiting to catch you out. All that wasted time....

I can't imagine there being no God...He is the only one I can count on who will never let me down.

Given the state you've been in for years, economically and mentally, he's doing a piss-poor job of 'never letting you down'. For god's sake man, kick away the crutch, it's giving you a terrible limp.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 01-07-2017 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15470
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 189 of 213 (796913)
01-07-2017 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
01-02-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Omni-God
After all, if God were going to interfere, why not start with Satan? Stop the evil at its source.

Excellent idea. It's what I'd have done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 01-02-2017 4:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 190 of 213 (796916)
01-07-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
01-07-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

He is the only one I can count on who will never let you down.


Again, if you set the bar really, really low, you can count on Him to never let you down. The homeless guy on the corner never lets me down because I don't expect anything of him.

Suppose I ask the homeless guy for a ride to work. He doesn't have a car or a driver's license but he hails a cab for me; it only costs me $20.

How is that different from Noah having to build his own ark?

Edited by ringo, : me --> you


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 01-07-2017 8:31 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 3:03 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 191 of 213 (796980)
01-09-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ringo
01-07-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Omni-God
Whats your point? Say you could talk to God. What would your needs be?

How Great is Our God

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ringo, posted 01-07-2017 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 192 of 213 (796990)
01-09-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Phat
01-09-2017 3:03 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

Whats your point? Say you could talk to God. What would your needs be?


You claimed that, "He is the only one I can count on who will never let me down." Message 187

That's blatantly false. You can't count on Him to build an ark for you. You can't count on Him to feed the hungry for you.

If I could talk to God, why would I bother? I can only count on myself and my fellow man to fulfil my needs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 3:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 10:59 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9259
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 193 of 213 (796993)
01-09-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
01-09-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Omni-God
the future looks bleak though. WE struggle. We die. We cease to exist. what hope is there, in your scenario? I certainly dont see humanity moving onward and upward.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 01-09-2017 11:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 195 by Tangle, posted 01-09-2017 11:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12816
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 194 of 213 (796995)
01-09-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
01-09-2017 10:59 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

I certainly dont see humanity moving onward and upward.


Did slavery end? Did women get the vote? Did segregation end? Is discrimination on the basis of race, colour, creed, etc. no longer acceptable?

Paht writes:

what hope is there, in your scenario?


What hope is there in yours?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 10:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4400
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 195 of 213 (796997)
01-09-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
01-09-2017 10:59 AM


Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

the future looks bleak though. WE struggle. We die. We cease to exist.

Correct. That's the system that your god set up for us. Lovely guy huh? This is the system that religion can not explain but biology can. This is why your god had to be invented, we think we are more important than a bacteria a pot plant and a chimp. Biology tells us that we're not.

quote:
what hope is there, in your scenario? I certainly dont see humanity moving onward and upward.

Hope for what? Life is what it is, we can cherish it for what it is while we have it and try to make our time here worthwhile or we can sink into a slough of despond and moan about it. The fanciful belief in imaginary after-lives so long as you worship the correct superstition is luckily fading. The sooner we drop this baloney the sooner we can start making lives better for everyone in the short time that they're here.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-09-2017 10:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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