AntiGod education should not be compulsary (even for non wealthy)

::: The COLLAPSE of DARWINISM :::
Can't find a coherent thought to get around in your post, but glad you enjoyed the muslim link which thrashes evolution quite soundly

Precisely! Many poor children find out Santa is not real, amd then begin to wonder if other things they were taught are also false. One reason we need to teach the truth.
By the way do most evolutionists then, really, not believe in the supernatural? My experience thus far would certainly suggest this very strongly. (Except for the occult ones who don't want to flaunt it, or admit what they really believe)

I sure don't. In fact it's difficult to see how the supernatural could exist, by definition - if something can cause an effect in the natural world, it becomes a part of the natural world, and therefore subject to scientific investigation.

If they don't teach you came from flies crawling around sewage to your children, whether you like it or not, and if you have to go to jail if you don't eat in the restarant, and if you are forced to pay for the restaurant with your tax money,and you find the service lousy, and if the product you end up eating just didn't turn out right at all-then, unless you are an evolutionist, I would suggest you take your business elsewhere!
As far as proving anything to you as fact- that would be for so many evo thumpers impossible because the way many got in that stste according to the bible was beacause they rejected the truth-and were GIVEN delusion. So, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!

You're not going to get very far arguing that your opponents are delusional or brainwashed - after all, that's exactly what we claim about you.Honestly you're the best example of why we should keep God out of the school - the kids might grow up like you.Why don't we talk about what we can agree on - repeatable, objective evidence?

1) Since ToE is a problem for the bible not god, Trixie already said this and I agree, then this is the dilemma:
Situation 1: You think god exists because of the bible (kinda like the movie 'Never Ending Story')
Result 1: If someone challenges a fact in the bible it is, for you, automatically a challenge against the fact of god, and therefore an attack on your faith.
Conclusion 1: So, your faith/belief in god is by proxy(kinda),ORSituation 2: You think god existed before and exists WITHOUT the bible.
Result 2: As such if the bible is challenged then "hmm, maybe I can be objective" about discussing the facts.
Conclusion 2: It has absolutely no impact on your faith/belief which is directly in god. No matter what inconsistencies might exist in the bible, etc it makes no difference because it has no bearing on your faith because technically, for you, god exists w/o the bible.

I think you missed the pitch, man. Serious hang-up. Why don't you mention the reality of what is actually taught in a biology class (a PART of the biology class NOT the entire curriculum, which in turn is a PART of the actual class load), so what are you ranting on and on about? So, are you against education at all? I mean you act as though every public school teaches only evolution all of the time. What a drama queen. So, do you think people who can't have kids, grandparents, and homosexuals should cry as well about paying taxes for schools?

I suggest to all, and especially the evo side, to cool it on this topic, for a while.Maybe 14gipper can take some extra time, before posting his next thoughts.Now all, put that paper bag to your mouth, a do a few breathing cycles.Adminnemooseusps - I love commas!!![This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-11-2004]

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I think the opinion I brought up was a nation "under God". So as long as the education is reflective of, and servant to the Christian majority, then fine. When it becomes oppressive, and tyranical, not honoring God, ot His people, then it must be fought. So if the people you mentioned don't mind paying taxes to a system that does not shun Jesus, that is fine by me. If one lived in Israel, or Iran, they should not complain about not having God taught in school publicly. Or about having Allah, or Jewish teachings somewhat prominent?

I repeated this to the guys in my office (all friends of mine and all three of them among the last four or five anti-evolution holdouts in our village till the last few months), and they all loved the way this was put.Unfortunately, 14gipper says he couldn't figure out what you were saying. He doesn't know what he's missing.EDIT: Shoot, moose, I'm sorry. I was mostly done with the second message when I saw your post. I tried to make sure the messages were not antagonistic, but I went ahead and finished it. I hope that's okay.[This message has been edited by truthlover, 02-11-2004]

The schools are trying to teach the truth.You've given us emotional and personal reasons that you don't want evolution taught in the schools. However, you have not given any reason for us to suppose that evolution is not true. This is not really the thread for that, but the answer can't be "we need to teach the truth," because more Americans believe evolution is the truth than believe it is not the truth. 49% of America is evolutionist. Only 10% is atheist. Assuming all the atheists believe in evolution, then 39% of America believes in evolution and believes in a god of some sort and therefore in the supernatural in some way. In fact, since 39 out of 49 evolutionists are not atheist, then 80% of evolutionists do believe in the supernatural in some form.Crashfrog, then, is in the minority. (Don't fret, crash, that should make you eligible for some sort of government funding, or at least a 10% leeway on bids for contract jobs with the government.)The statistics are different among scientists, where nearly 50% are atheists and over 90% believe in evolution. I remember it working out to 50/50 among scientists. Does America have a Christian majority? I'd be willing to bet that in a couple decades it won't. If it did not, then would you be okay with education being reflective of and servant to whoever was the majority? What if, say, it were Buddhist?

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So as long as the education is reflective of, and servant to the Christian majority, then fine. When it becomes oppressive, and tyranical, not honoring God, ot His people, then it must be fought.

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This above statement is a great example of why we have civil rights. The framers of the Bill of Rights realized that there were no provisions in the Constitution itself for specific individual civil liberties. In order to make this country truly democratic, our individual rights had to be gauranteed. What you want, gipper, is a society where the majority has absolute say over what happens. This is truly frightening. The majority could be, and in your argument against evolution, would be wrong. You want your viewpoint pressed on everyone else regardless of the consequences. Our country's heritage is that of Christianity. But which denomination? In order for you to continue to flourish under our current system, your rights have to be gauranteed regardless of the majority opinion. What you are advocating is tyranny by proxy. Our current educational system may be flawed, but its greatest tenet is that education is available to all children regardless of majority/minority background. In order to be fair to our civil rights, we must be areligious. To espouse a certain religious viewpoint--whether it be from the majority or not--would endanger the freedoms gauranteed to that viewpoint and the viewpoint of others. How far would you be willing to go?

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I think the opinion I brought up was a nation "under God". So as long as the education is reflective of, and servant to the Christian majority, then fine. When it becomes oppressive, and tyranical, not honoring God, ot His people, then it must be fought.

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Perhaps some more US history and political science would help you as well.The idea that we are a nation "Under God" was fairly recent. The founders of this nation surely did not make this a part of our government and wrote many things to the contrary. In fact, in 1797 they made a treaty with Tripoli and in that Federal document the US government stated plainly the US was not founded on Xianity, or bound to Xian principles.They very early on created an amendment to ensure religious majorities did NOT get to dictate policies over minorities.It was only in the 1950's, when the nation was swept up in anti-communist fervor, that legislators lost their heads and stuck God in everywhere to distinguish US from THEM. That includes the phrase "under God".Thankfully that may get repealed in the near future (as it is clearly unconstitutional). And for those that think this is a major blow to being a true American I would advise you to check out the 1942 US propaganda film "Joe Smith, American". In that we see children pledging the flag as it was once known... WITHOUT "under God".I guess this just goes to show how weak many of the Xian faith are. Without constant reminders to everyone just who the majority in this country are, they lose hope. Get it in the pledge, get it in the science class, get it in the Constitution (just as soon as they can).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

To prove what an old geezer I truly am, I'll confess that I learned the Pledge without any gods in it, and then had to relearn it in the new version in second grade. Difficult stuff for a seven-year-old.....

Wow... In that movie the kids also had a different way of saluting the flag. Did you have to do that too? And how did they explain the change? Do you remember any debate about this at all?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)