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Author Topic:   Gorilla strength
Silverback
Inactive Junior Member


Message 256 of 287 (466860)
05-17-2008 3:07 PM


Hi all.

Couple of days ago i saw this topic when i was "googling" "Gorilla strength", and found it very interesting.

I have studied Mountain Gorillas intensivley for the last year, in hope of someday having the honor of working with them.

Anyway, i have done a very short studie on how you can messure a Gorillas strength compered to us, and will post it here (if you whant the entire study just tell me)

quote:
“It's also to do with that fact that their muscles work around five to seven times more efficiently than ours. Studies of human and other primates' jaw muscles show that our muscle fibres are far smaller and weaker than those of our cousins - roughly an eighth the size of those seen in macaques (small Primates), for example.
The reasons for this remain poorly understood, but one contributing factor is the genes that encode myosin, the protein fibres from which muscles are made. Comparison of human and ape sequences for a myosin gene called MYH16 show that all humans have a mutant version of this gene.
Some have even credited the more diminutive muscles in human jaws for our larger intelligence. One theory says that these smaller muscles gave our skulls the room to grow rounder, allowing for a bigger brain cavity” [3]
Basically, this means that a Gorilla is five to seven times stronger than us times its size compared to us.
For example, if you weigh 150 pounds (70 kg) then a Gorilla should be 5-7*3=15-21 times stronger than you.
Though this way of measuring their strength is highly questionable, there is little doubt that they are far, far stronger than any man.

(yes english is not my first language)

Few reasons why i think the Gorilla is so much, and note where i say much stronger than other animals of equal size, like Lions and Grizzlys is mainly because of their limb/muscular attachment and muscle effectiveness (reduced myosin), rather than just muscle mass

Edited by Silverback, : Typo

Edited by Silverback, : Typo again


  
dmm
Junior Member (Idle past 2101 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 07-28-2008


Message 257 of 287 (476890)
07-28-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
04-25-2006 9:04 PM


"Gorilla book that I have at home says that they are 4-8 times stronger than the average man. The Animal face off show said that scientist estimate that the strength of a 400 pound Silverback Gorilla is 20 times our own ..... Nigel Marvin...... stated that they where 5 times stronger than a human"-LudoRephaim.

The question is which human in particular are they talking about? There are plenty of untrained women out there that cannot bench press a 45 lb Olympic bar (with no plates attached). At the other end of the spectrum there are men out there (albeit rare) that can bench 450 lb. So that's a ten-fold difference among humans. At the extreme end of the spectrum we have men benching 600-700 lb (without a bench suit. Bench suits push it up to 1000 lb). I gained almost a four-fold strength increase myself with training, going from a bench of less than 100 to 385 over several years. In other words adult men vary amongst themselves by a factor or 4 or 5 and more in strength.

So if gorillas are 10 fold stronger than the strongest men, then they are 100 stronger than your average human, on the other hand if there are only 10 times strongest than your average human then they're on par with your most elite males.

The variability in the gorilla to human strength ratio in the stated books is due to the rather imprecise nature of the description "stronger than a human".


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3742
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 258 of 287 (476893)
07-28-2008 10:41 AM


Level dependent benefits.
Don't forget that every time you gain four levels you can push your strength up by one, so if you start with a strength of 16 (not bad for a normal human) by the time you get to 30th you can get a strength 23!

This is going to around about the strength of a gorilla, I reckon.

Edited by Larni, : Decent title.


    
jamison
Junior Member (Idle past 2095 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 07-30-2008


Message 259 of 287 (477283)
07-31-2008 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by LudoRephaim
04-26-2006 3:39 PM


Hey watch it buddy, I like wrestling.
This message is a reply to:
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jamison
Junior Member (Idle past 2095 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 07-30-2008


Message 260 of 287 (477284)
07-31-2008 9:10 PM


Humans are better.
Replies to this message:
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Baldrick Cunningplan
Junior Member (Idle past 1784 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 01-07-2009


Message 261 of 287 (493192)
01-07-2009 4:05 AM


Is a gorilla stronger than:
-Louis Cyr, likely the greatest professional strongman of the 19th century (his greatest feat was probably when he restrained four draft horses simultaneously...is a gorilla's arms stronger than four large horses?)
-Angus MacAskill, a legendary Scottish-Canadian giant who was absurdly mighty (according to popular repute, he once carried around a 2,800 lb anchor)
-The Great Antonio (towed a 478 tonne train for 19.8 meters. Although towing a train is nothing akin to actually lifting it in any way)

Edited by Baldrick Cunningplan, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 262 of 287 (493240)
01-07-2009 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Baldrick Cunningplan
01-07-2009 4:05 AM


Baldrick Cunningplan writes:

Is a gorilla stronger than:

-Louis Cyr, likely the greatest professional strongman of the 19th century (his greatest feat was probably when he restrained four draft horses simultaneously...is a gorilla's arms stronger than four large horses?)
-Angus MacAskill, a legendary Scottish-Canadian giant who was absurdly mighty (according to popular repute, he once carried around a 2,800 lb anchor)
-The Great Antonio (towed a 478 tonne train for 19.8 meters. Although towing a train is nothing akin to actually lifting it in any way)

I bet none of those guys could pick up a car in one hand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Baldrick Cunningplan, posted 01-07-2009 4:05 AM Baldrick Cunningplan has not yet responded

  
Leto
Junior Member (Idle past 1883 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 02-27-2009


Message 263 of 287 (500548)
02-27-2009 8:01 AM


Indeed, the 'rilla has exceptional puissance when compared to it's ilk, the great apes but has it dawned on you that apes are quite unimpressive when compared to animals from the Order Carnivora? The brazen fact that there exists accounts of these apes being taken down by felines half their size is testament to the comparative weakness of apes in contrast to bears and felines. Here is the source: "Leopard attack on and the consumption of gorillas in the Central African Republic", by J.M Fay et al, Journal of Human Evolution (1995), 29, 93-99.

They clearly state that the other reported cases are recognized as factual evidence that adult male gorillas have been killed by leopards. They conclude by saying "it appears that gorillas are vulnerable to leopard predation in all their range".
I can list many pragmatic advantages in corner of animals from the Order Carnivora possessing flexible forelimbs:

1) A morphology better-suited for wrestling and striking. Surely you realize dorsally situated shoulders are impractical at such movements. This book: The Natural History of the Gorilla, by A. F. Dixson, seems to discuss their dorsally situated shoulder blades -- something that suggests despite their larger chests relative to size, that they would very likely have much poorer strength/efficiency in certain grappling/running movements of the forequarters as similarly sized members of the Order Carnivora.
Not only that but, I'm afraid the short, thickset arms possessed by felines and bears are far more useful in close-quarter grappling than the long, lean arms the gorilla has. Furthermore, at the end of these long arms, you get terrible leverage. It takes twice as much force to lift a 50lb object at the end of a 6 foot limb as it would for a 3 foot limb.

2) Claws - these bestow greater traction when wrestling. Hands are great for manipulating objects, playing piano and using chop sticks but for manipulating the whole bodies of animals? I think not, animals don't have handles on their bodies. And grabbing the stronger, shorter and thicker limbs of similar sized feline is folly.
Additionally, claws are a cut above hands(no pun intended) in dealing damage, this should be obvious, and apes when compared to the prey of felines and bears with thicker hides are quite defenseless in the face of a feline's claws. Why? Woolly fur is no defense against the powerful swipes of a similar sized feline(one of these swipes, if placed accurately is capable of crushing the skull of domestic cattle, this is documented in Perry, Richards The World of the Tiger, here are the snapshots of the accounts from the book) and a gorilla's skin is actually thinner than ours. This:
states that the skin of the Gorilla averages 1.5 mm in thickness. This study states that, prior to treatment, the average skin thickness in the arms of Humans was 1.64 mm, and 2mm on the abdomen.

3) Muscle mass - The only feline, that is comparable in size to the gorilla is the lion. And the lion will have a hefty advantage in muscle mass, according to this source, it has the highest skeletal muscle per body mass amongst mammals:

4) Killing method - Animals form the Order Carnivora, possess great acumen in the craft of killing and each of these animals have ways of killing their opponents or prey. Most animals from the Order Carnivora, when in danger or on the attack, have an instinctual imperative to go for the throat. These carnivores make their bread essentially, by killing other animals, and thus are imbued with the predatory knowledge of how to inflict a kill bite. Felines happen to have some of the most devastating kill bites in their "weapons depot". Apes? They have strong bites and formidable canines, indeed, but can they be used proficiently to end lives, when on the offensive against a similar sized opponent? No but in a life-threatening situation against similar sized opponents they can bite defensively in abject desperation, on whatever body part it can reach. This is hardly effective. So what are other tenable ways for which the apes can kill similar-sized animals as effectively as animals from the Order Carnivora? Many people posit that blunt trauma, by dint of it's arms would be one such way. This would be plausible if an ape or any other animal is facing against an opponent a quarter of it's size or less but not against a similar sized opponent. Eg. Gaur trampling a tiger with it's hard hooves, this is incredibly effective because the gaur outweighs the tiger by about 1500lbs or more.

This analysis of the practical disadvantages apes have against similar sized animals from the Order Carnivora is exiguous for I have little time to spare.
Any thoughts?

I want to thank Ursus for finding some of these sources.

Edited by Leto, : Wrong word used.

Edited by Leto, : No reason given.

Edited by Leto, : Punctuation Error.

Edited by Leto, : No reason given.

Edited by Leto, : One more point to be made.

Edited by Leto, : Tidying up post. Lol.

Edited by Leto, : No reason given.

Edited by Leto, : No reason given.


    
Leto
Junior Member (Idle past 1883 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 02-27-2009


Message 264 of 287 (500903)
03-03-2009 5:29 AM


4) Killing method - Animals from the Order Carnivora, possess great acumen in the craft of killing and each of these animals have ways of killing their opponents or prey. Felines happen to have some of the most devastating kill bites in their weapons "depot". Apes? They have strong bites, indeed, but can they be used proficiently to end lives, when on the offensive against a similar sized opponent? No. They can bite defensively in abject desperation, on whatever body part it can reach. That is all. So what are other tenable ways for which the apes can kill similar-sized animals as effectively as animals from the Order Carnivora? Many people I've come across posit that blunt trauma, by dint of it's arms would be one such way. This would be plausible if an ape or any other animal is facing against an opponent a quarter of it's size or less but not against a similar sized opponent. Eg. Gaur trampling a tiger with it's hard hooves, this is incredibly effective because the gaur outweighs the tiger by about 1500lbs or more.
    
Sheena
Junior Member (Idle past 1863 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 03-23-2009


Message 265 of 287 (503925)
03-23-2009 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jamison
07-31-2008 9:10 PM


"Is a gorilla stronger than:
-Louis Cyr, likely the greatest professional strongman of the 19th century (his greatest feat was probably when he restrained four draft horses simultaneously...is a gorilla's arms stronger than four large horses?)
-Angus MacAskill, a legendary Scottish-Canadian giant who was absurdly mighty (according to popular repute, he once carried around a 2,800 lb anchor)
-The Great Antonio (towed a 478 tonne train for 19.8 meters. Although towing a train is nothing akin to actually lifting it in any way)"

Hi all, and thanks for such informative information on Gorillas I was unable to find elsewhere. I did a search on 'google' regarding the strength of gorillas, and this site came up in my search. Hard to find definite answers, but yours will do nicely for a school paper I'm doing with my niece.

I'd also like to comment on the statements I quoted above, namely that of the late 'Louis Cyr' who was said to have restrained four draft horses. As a draft horse owner, I assure you no 'super' man can restrain four draft horses, let alone one.

Depending on the breed, a draft horse can weigh as little as 1,500 pounds, with heavier draft breeds reaching an average of 2,200 pounds.
Even the smallest draft horse, times four, would weigh in at approximately 6,000 pounds. I found it very hard to believe a man could restrain 6,000.

I don't know which type of draft horses Louis Cyr restrained, however, I do know a team of light draft horses (2 horses) can pull on average 3,400. I've seen a team of heavy draft (2 horses) horses pull close to 8,000, others have seen a team pull close to 10,000 pounds.

Regardless, I did some research and found many of those so-called strongmen, if not all, who preformed incredible tests of strength and power used trickery or exaggerated the numbers, including Louis Cyr.

Louis Cyr was indeed a strong man -- an uncommingly strong man, but the reality was, he was not nearly as strong as even one horse, let alone two or four.

For anyone interested, in 1931 'Science and Invention' printed an article describing tricks of the strongmen that anyone could accomplish, including the trick Cry used to restrain four draft horses.

In some aspects, animals are superior to humans (strength, power, speed) and I can't understand why some people are unwilling to accept that as fact.

Good day all and thanks again for the gorilla (and other species) info.


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Catholic Scientist
Member
Posts: 9292
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 266 of 287 (505259)
04-09-2009 2:25 PM


The Secret To Chimp Strength
quote:
In an article published in the April issue of Current Anthropology, Walker argues that humans may lack the strength of chimps because our nervous systems exert more control over our muscles. Our fine motor control prevents great feats of strength, but allows us to perform delicate and uniquely human tasks.

quote:
Our surplus motor neurons allow us to engage smaller portions of our muscles at any given time. We can engage just a few muscle fibers for delicate tasks like threading a needle, and progressively more for tasks that require more force. Conversely, since chimps have fewer motor neurons, each neuron triggers a higher number of muscle fibers. So using a muscle becomes more of an all-or-nothing proposition for chimps. As a result, chimps often end up using more muscle than they need.

"[A]nd that is the reason apes seem so strong relative to humans," Walker writes.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090330200829.htm


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Mr Jack
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 3475
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 267 of 287 (505263)
04-09-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Catholic Scientist
04-09-2009 2:25 PM


Re: The Secret To Chimp Strength
The full article is available for free access
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Baldrick Cunningplan
Junior Member (Idle past 1784 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 01-07-2009


Message 268 of 287 (511523)
06-10-2009 5:28 AM


Well, I've often kind of wondered if the physical power of animals is overestimated. The reason is that you just hear wild stories that sound ridiculous for mammals. I remember reading on a site, one guy thought a chimp (IIRC these weigh 90 - 180 lbs) could lift 600 lbs on one hand with absolutely no effort. I believe a chimp could rip an average guy's arm off, but I'm pretty sure that lifting 15 - 20 times your own weight is something only insects and arachnids are capable of.

Also, I once saw on YouTube a TV show where a sumo engaged a female orang in a tug-of-war. The orang won but she was putting in a lot of effort before it was over, and she was using three limbs to pull the rope. Sumos are big guys, but I'm pretty sure they're all-fat compared to the guys from the "strongest man" contests. I suppose it's possible that the guys who made the show did something to make the sumo able to briefly compete, but then again...

Edit: I should also note that I once went on the internet and typed in "chimp strength". There was a site mentioning a scientific test on the intelligence of apes to see if two chimps could work together in order to move a heavy cage to escape an enclosure or get some food or something. I wonder how much that cage weighed. I also have heard that in some ways, muscle groups or something, human athletes are stronger than other animals. I'm pretty sure it was real when Cyr lifted a platform with 18 men, weighing a total of something like 4,300 lbs, on his back. And I wonder if a chimp could do that.

Edited by Baldrick Cunningplan, : No reason given.


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StinkBait
Junior Member (Idle past 986 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 08-15-2011


Message 269 of 287 (628974)
08-15-2011 1:42 AM


Gorilla has us beat in certain feats of forarm,neck,shoulder strength and thats about it.

Anything else a human can train to a higher performance than gorillas,one the main reason why is technique gorrilas are intelegent but nothing that puts it past the other intelligent mammals.

We could never uproot a tree the size a gorilla does becouse thats diangle and straight forward where the gorrilas greatest strength lies,but when u get into lifting things above your head the gorilla can barely stand over a minute without being uncomfortable becouse it doesnt train to stand and its spine wasnt made for human posture. so to think it can lift 4000ib above its head is just wishfull thinking.

People talk about hard a gorilla can hit and yet we've had martial artist that can break the same glass that enclose gorillas in. with proper technique,muscle memory, along with bone density training we can way outdo a gorilla, shaoling 1 inch punch was literaly tested and said to be equivalent of 30mph car crash,MMA fighter punch was registered at 2200ibs, bas rutten kick who isnt near the strongest kicker in the world went off the scale and scale capped at 3000ibs.

Though i still believe 9/10 times a gorilla would take the greatest martial artist and bite him many times then probly just run off leaving u wounded to the point that you wouldnt go after it. And about oyama "though hes a bad ass"he cheated the bulls when he faught them,Now Bill picket "he was awsome" he could take bulls down like a PitBull.

And Somebody cheapshoting a trained bear in the stomach is hardly a act of human vs bear since the bear is trained to run away from pain as it is beaten daily in those times.If boxer met bear in wild life situation its gonna maul him with strength thats just unfightable.

Yea a human has the capability of phaseing any animal with proper leverage to your hit but for the most part we was built for intellegince for a reason and anyone inteligent knows its not smart to fight at a disadvantage,thats why we have weapons.

Edited by StinkBait, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines between paragraphs (indentations don't work here, and blank lines are nicer anyway).


    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 690 days)
Posts: 2962
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 270 of 287 (628975)
08-15-2011 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Baldrick Cunningplan
06-10-2009 5:28 AM


Well, I've often kind of wondered if the physical power of animals is overestimated. The reason is that you just hear wild stories that sound ridiculous for mammals. I remember reading on a site, one guy thought a chimp (IIRC these weigh 90 - 180 lbs) could lift 600 lbs on one hand with absolutely no effort. I believe a chimp could rip an average guy's arm off, but I'm pretty sure that lifting 15 - 20 times your own weight is something only insects and arachnids are capable of.

600 is not 15 times a chimp's weight. More like 6x. Chimps are extremely strong, easily capable of ripping someone to shreds. Just google "chimp attack images" to see some real horror shows.

The bigger issue is not how strong the chimp is, but the mechanical (dis)advantage of a chimp's long arms in trying to life a weight.

A better, fairer test would be the ability to pull an object, or to rip an object apart.

Comparing strength requires comparable tests.

Obviously an elephant is much stronger than a human, but I can easily out do any given elephant in chin ups.


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